The Devaluation of Music...?

Culture
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I don’t. I just don’t think the world owes them anything. If being a working musician sucks for some, then it’s no different than any other career.

Then maybe they should be in a different line of work.

Look, if the thing you love to do doesn’t pay the rent, you have two choices; stay poor or find a different vocation. Just because I love to knit doesn’t mean that I’m entriteld to make a living at it, or that I can complain about the invention of the mechanical loom and demand special laws be created to protect my ability to make knitting my career. I get to choose; do I love knitting enough to do it without remuneration, and stay poor but contented with the satisfaction that I get from my art form, or do I find another job that can support the lifestyle I prefer and relegate knitting to a hobby? That’s the choice musicians have to make too.

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I see the recording industry differently because I lived in New Orleans. A typical week for me was to see a live show every Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. In New Orleans at that time, all the artists made their money by performing. Very few of them had recorded albums and if they did, they made little money off of them. The blues artists, being generally older, had a lot of health problems, or addiction. Living off of performing assumes one is physically able to perform all the time. Playing late nights at clubs is not great for a musician’s health.

Fortunately, in New Orleans, the Tipitina’s Foundation helps these older artists with their healthcare, and this has kept these musicians, and their music, alive.

http://tipitinasfoundation.org/

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In addition to health issues, there’s also more risk to one’s instruments/equipment when performing than in recording.

Musicians do what they do for different reasons. I’ve performed with a taiko drumming group, but I’ve done a lot more recording.

For me, performing was a complex emotional rush (excitement and sometimes euphoria, combined with intense anxiety) and it is also exhausting (moving the gear, travel, unfamiliar locations, body under stress while performing, exerting oneself often in heat and humidity while trying not to look tired, generally not eating/drinking as healthy as one should). (In my case I didn’t have to worry about secondhand smoke or crazy drunks very much.) But aside from a few seconds of structured solo time, there’s not a lot of creative reward in it. I was working hard to bring other peoples’ music to life, and between rehearsals and performances and still working full-time, it didn’t leave me with the time and energy to do much else.

(Note, I was never paid for performing. The group charged for performances except for certain non-profits, but the money simply went into expenses… and in fact performers had to pay monthly dues as well to help cover those.)

Actually writing music, doing sound design, recording/producing it etc. are much more creatively rewarding to me and it’s much more personally sustainable.

Besides which, not all types of music are suited to live performance. I make music for headphone listening, mostly ambient or abstract electronica; not the sort of thing that works in bars and clubs. I’ve seen only a little bit of electronic music done live, and the entire process is very different from creating music in a studio setting.

I’ve self-released a couple of albums and charged for them – back when nobody was really selling digital downloads and streaming hadn’t taken over. They basically paid for the costs of having the CDs, cases and inserts printed, but didn’t actually compensate me or pay for any gear. I probably could have sold more copies if I’d put more time and energy into promotion (which I don’t enjoy) but I’m not sure it would have been enough to compensate for that time and energy. And if I’d gone looking for a record label, I might have been worse off financially even if more copies were sold.

Since then I’ve just given away my work and considered it a labor of love (though for next year I’m considering going back to an album format and giving Bandcamp a shot… and definitely not quitting my day job).

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I know. I’ve been writing and thinking about this stuff for a while. But again, much of this is still built on the older, label based model for the initial capital outlay. that doesn’t mean that going forward that these new approaches won’t eventually dominate, but at this point, we’re still in a place where already having a reputation/fanbase is almost a necessity for making it.

Punk changed the game quite a bit, but it still was label based, and plenty of punk/indie labels just ended up functioning like the majors anyway, with regards to artist exploitation. There was also a round of corporate buy outs of both the independent music distribution chains and many of the most well established indie labels (though they often retained a lot of control over their individual operations).

So I guess that you and I shouldn’t be paid for your work either? I’m just unsure why so many people think that creative fields aren’t also real labor deserving of real renumeration. I’m not arguing here that all recording or working musicians should be Madonna rich. I’m arguing for being paid for the work people do.

Why? The problem is more often than not, people refusing to pay musicians for work performed. I’ve seen it happen, with my own eyes and every working musicians has either seen it or had it happen to them in some point of their career - they play a gig, for a promised payment, and then mysteriously, the money isn’t available. They literally DO the work and then they money isn’t paid out at the end of the night.

See, this is why I think you should actually read the Wu-Tang book here, as they address some of these key points we’re disagreeing about.

I also think there is a difference between gig musicians and recording artists, though there is overlap. I’d also guess that given the cities history and the strength of the music community there, shady venues that refuse to pay artists don’t last long.

Sure. And I don’t want to suggest that people shouldn’t do that. Music is such a deeply embedded aspect of human life, that we’re going to make music, in any number of ways

But I’d also say we live in a capitalist economy, and that it’s worth having the conversation about labor, art, and value.

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Sure, there are lots of bad things that happen to all kinds of people. Heck, I’ve been stiffed wages before too. But I think you’re straying off topic; not paying people for work has nothing to do with digitization. Anyway, this is all a thread-jack from what people are reading to a discussion of copyright, and that’s my fault. I’ll fork this conversation so we can talk about it elsewhere (npi).

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It kind of does. Pay outs from streaming and downloads are substantial less. And it’s not like the nature of the labor itself has changed, the means of distribution has.

Roger that!

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Moved to a new thread; hey, that’s a cool feature!

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I see how those things intersect, and also how that intersects with bad behavior by labels, but I think we need to treat the issues discreetly, and I’m really just addressing how digitization has changed the way artists are compensated, which I thought was your original point.

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Agreed! Glad it was included! Erases our egregious derailing of the other thread!

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I’m not sure we can, though.

True, but I don’t see it as entirely separate from previous business models of selling music as a commodity, but a new iteration of it. It’s still sound recordings, but they are no longer “worth” the same as a physical product, even more so when people can rip a disc and throw it up online for free, generally on a foreign server, with no means of taking them down. Some artists have indeed embraced the digital era and freely put their content up for exposure. This model, though has primarily benefited those who already have an established fanbase.

But the question still goes back to art and value in a capitalist economy, I think. What do we consider work and how should people who make art for a living go about asking for support for their work. In the case of “real” art (ballet, orchestras, art museums, etc), we have a combination of state funding and charitable donations. For “mass” art, we’ve settled on mass production, funded by fans, mediated by corporations. The corporations that produce these products (sound recordings) have a long, checkered history of doing everything they can to not share the profits with the artists. We know this, because a number of artists, from obscure blues players to super stars like the Beatles, have commented on this phenonmenon. Downloads have become yet another corporate label driving down the costs of the end product, even in cases where the costs of making it have not gone down in many cases (not true in all).

Ultimately, a corporation should not be able to hold the copyrights to music made by individuals for anything more than they need for the distribution process. Maybe after a set amount of time, rights automatically revert to the artist and they can do what they like with it?

I’ll also say, that monetizing one’s work online isn’t just a music specific problem. How does one write or put up art to share in an age when we can all easily access any number of things freely. Having ideas and information found in all forms of art is critical to our public discourse. But people still got to eat. I wish I had easy answers, but I really don’t, other than artists being willing to talk about their work as just that, a form of labor that people derive value from, that should receive some sort of fair compensation. We’ve mythologized all manner of artists for so long, that we forget that they, too, are part of the capitalist system, I think.

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A little out of date, but here are two articles by Janis Ian on music and the internet, the second a followup to the first:

https://www.janisian.com/reading/internet.php

https://www.janisian.com/reading/fallout.php

I’m just putting these up here as a reference.

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I would disagree with this somewhat. You’re correct that indie musicians have a far more tenuous grasp on their livelihoods than big names like Wu Tang Clan. But bands need to get their music out there somewhere, especially if they’re just starting out. If the record labels will do this, but essentially take all the profits, then what’s to stop the band from releasing samples of their own music, for free or for a nominal fee, with the expectation that it will contribute to building a fanbase in the near future?

Unauthorized copies are not cool though. The difference is if the band themselves is in control of how the music is distributed and publicized, or if some third party is ripping them off. The band should be in control of how they earn a living, and digital media can either help or hurt them, depending on how it’s used.

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Another couple of points:

How does the availability of time for hobbies affect the amount of music being produced? I know a lot of people have demanding jobs, families, elderly parents, etc. etc., but we’re no longer pioneers having to chop our own wood and grow our own food. (I’m probably being naive here; forgive me.) It just seems to me that there are a LOT more people being creative nowadays, and in the last decade or two (with the internet) it’s been possible for a lot of those to release the products of their creativity. Does this affect supply and demand? Of course Sturgeon’s rule applies, but still.

Related point: how does the availability of cheap home recording (not to mention technology allowing one person to do the guitar, singing, as well as percussion, violins, etc.) affect the amount of music being produced? Renting time in expensive commercial studios is no longer required in some cases.

Summary: many more people are being creative, which in my mind is terrific. But is it driving down prices?

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I think there is a huge difference between artists decided to put their music up for free and their music being put up without there knowledge, or being put up on streaming services, and receiving no compensation for their work. But you note that, so we agree there. I think people are misinterpreting what I’m saying as being anti-download or anti-streaming and I’m not arguing that. I’m arguing for artist control over their products.

Usually, the labels hold the copyright, so artists aren’t allowed to do so. This isn’t always the case of course, and many artists are much smarter about these issues and get better and more equitable contracts, but not all of them. It’s a systemic problem, I think.

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The Wu-Tang book also noted this phenomenon of a sort of “market glut” if you will. There is so much out there, that it’s hard for people to break through. Again, this gives labels leverage, because they can get music to places where it’s more likely to get heard.

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Did they really?

If they did, it’s a false expectation. Traditionally, musicians spend years to decades honing their craft, then record a bunch of songs, some good, some bad. It is kind of a crapshoot that the best songs aren’t always the most commercially successful, and same with the best artist. There’s a lot of luck involved. It’s like a spray-and-pray type of thing, and it takes a lot of effort to make that pay off. And when it pays off, usually it’s one hit that doesn’t have a lot of staying power… sometimes it’s a territorial hit that never makes it big outside a certain city.

Everyone going into the music business understands that music isn’t an easy path to wealth and fame. Even if they don’t exactly understand that at first, they learn fast.

Dude, just stop.

Your argument seems to be that music has no value, or at least very little value. It’s the little things like music, and art, and literature, that make my life less drab, and frankly that make it worth living. If I couldn’t appreciate these nice things in life, I don’t know what I would do.

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This is how I was in Chicago. I could go out, anywhere, and see top-notch acts for a small cover charge. It was far better music than I’ve ever heard on recordings, because it was more spontaneous and creative. A lot of recordings just sound overrehearsed in comparison. The musicianship is about the same quality, but the recordings sound more rigid, not to mention overproduced to the point where I’m hearing the production more than I’m hearing the musicians.

As Eddie Condon once said, “Everybody will buy a musician a drink, but no one will stand him to a ham sandwich”.

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It’s not just luck, it’s about what gets pushed to the forefront of public attention through the media by corporations. They still dominate the landscape for mass produced music, and we can’t just assume that it’s luck when there are mechanisms for getting music out to the public that are time proven and effective and involve the networks and connections set up by building up the industry over decades in a particular way.

I’d also argue that the vast majority of musicians don’t want to be rich and famous… they want to make a living. I think that’s another industry perpetrated mythology that people should want that, which allows them to push young musicians in certain directions on the promise of fame and wide exposure, as opposed to career longevity.

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They had that problem with recordings in New Orleans, too.

The best recording of a New Orleans artist is the Neville Brothers Live album. Most people outside of New Orleans have vaguely heard of the Neville Brothers (aka The Nevilles), but to people in New Orleans, they dominate. Each of the four brothers has their own side project, with Aaron’s solo career being the one most people are familiar with (especially his work with Linda Ronstadt). He’s actually the weakest member of The Nevilles, kind of a one trick pony with his falsetto. The other brothers are really gifted on instruments; he can only play the cowbell and tamborine. All of the Neville children (and grandchildren) are also talented, most notably Charmaine Neville, Charles’ daughter, who has a huge following in France and is a major diva.

Since Kaitrina, some of the New Orleans artists have gotten more well known. They’ve gotten exposure in New York and Houston. I’ve seen some higher quality recordings of their work coming out recently.

The Neville Brothers Live on Planet Earth is free with Amazon Prime.

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No. And I am disappointed that you would tell me to shut up rather than have a reasonable discussion.

Not at all. I love music. I pay for music. I pay for streaming services. But what I don’t think is that just because someone chooses to make music, they deserve some special treatment or some guaranteed lifestyle. The fact is that for the last hundred years there has been a technology that has given people who play music a special ability to earn money without any additional work. And in the last century, the rights of those artists have been expanded even further, to the point of actually stifling innovation and art. That’s drawn a lot of people in to the business who want to make a lot of money instead of necessarily make art for art’s sake. And now those people are whining that they don’t make as much as they should because technology has changed and they feel devalued.

Prior to recording technology, people wrote music, played music, and enjoyed music just fine. It was properly “valued” then. Maybe moving back in that direction a little bit would be good for everyone.

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