Forming collective action alliances to fight US fascism

Politics
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We’ve already lost? Then what’s the point?

No, I’m not talking about one election. I’m talking about democracy. I don’t think we’ve lost that, yet, and this mismatch may explain why we seem to have been talking past each other previously.

Can we agree that when we’re talking about
current US politics, the T**** admin is attempting, and has made significant headway towards, a fascist coup?

If we agree about that, can we also agree that fighting that coup is an emergency?

If we agree that it is an emergency, would it be fair to say it is an “all hands on deck” kind of emergency?

My point is mainly this: We need to set aside disagreements about policy and any pre-existing conflicts or even old hatreds, no matter how well-earned, and focus on the fight against fascism. Under fascism, policy disputes are irrelevant, anyway, because the people have no say in policy and the fascists will change the law and its enforcement to our detriment regardless of whether we agree or disagree.

I think it’s a category error to look at our current situation in the context of electoral politics. The fascists certainly aren’t. They don’t care about whether their actions are unpopular. They don’t care about harming their chances for re-election because they don’t plan to have anymore elections. At least, elections that are anything more than show elections with predetermined results.

So with that in mind, can we afford to discard allies who we disagree with about everything else as long as they are willing to fight fascists?

Can we afford to waste time, energy, and resources on allies who won’t fight fascism?

I’d argue that latter group includes useless Dem politicians who want to sit back and let Republicans alienate voters until November 2026, but also includes leftists who take their ball and go home if they have to be on the same team as, for example, a climate-change denier.

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43

Agreed. At this point, I’m looking for next steps to take from the federal to local levels. We’ve already established some useless pols need to be removed from their leadership positions. There are also some soon to be primaried due to their voting records. I’m not sure if any can justify past votes that gained public ire, but it’s unclear which proposed strategies should be used in Congress to hold the line until the next election takes place.

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44

I agree with you totally but the discarding of allies truly kind of goes in all directions. Generally when I look at such things if I don’t know better I find it convincing that the agency and power are in the less progressive wing and that the less progressive voters are actually just as unwilling to compromise in many cases.

And I think it’s reached a point where people have, on the whole, simply either accepted being isolated as the victims in an extant wave of fascism or not, and among those who have not yet I truly don’t see that much willingness to compromise either.

Among the centrist dems like Biden or Harris, of course they are willing to compromise with their respected friends and colleagues and they ought to always be able to also as this is normally good politics in the US. But… not this time maybe… and that goes for all of us. Now is the time to feel where the pressure is applied because that link needs to be protected the most.

When it comes to just the fighting fascism part… Anyone who gets split off in this effort will likely not be of much use to party politics because they will likely lose their votes one way or another. But they are also being targeted because doing so weakens the party.

I think the DNC needs to come to see this lucidly for what it is and make a point of fighting it.

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45

Why is the condemnation always for leftists who don’t want to play with climate-change deniers destroying their world, and never say for conservatives who like habeas corpus but won’t work with people who think black lives matter? Are there really so many more of the former than the latter?

I can agree with any hand on deck is one more, but I don’t get why it always comes with the idea of “give passes to the right and keep sticking it to the left”. We’re supposed to throw arms open for a former Bush voter but someone who voted third-party gets kicked and told to get in line already. I don’t think that’s a good tactic at all…I’m not sure it’s even setting aside pre-existing conflicts.

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46

Yeah, no. I do not agree, and I don’t think that’s what France did in defeating Marie Le Pen. They still have those disagreements. But also, the US is not France. France has more than two political parties of significant size and influence, and forming coalition governments is a thing they have done for a long time. We are, for the moment, stuck with this stupid fucking two party system. We don’t have that option. Most Democrats and left of center people voted for Harris this past election. She didn’t lose because a small percentage of people on the far left voted 3rd party or didn’t vote. And ensuring that those people hold their noses and vote blue no matter what in every election until fascism is defeated isn’t going to change anything because that’s largely already happening. The coalition in France that formed was between the left and the reasonable right. Or … their version of right, which would probably be considered leftist here. Still, we would need moderate Republicans, and democracy valuing Republicans to vote blue to guarantee a lasting defeat of fascism. In other words, I don’t think our internal policy differences (our meaning everyone left of US center, centrist Democrats, liberals, progressives, socialists, etc.) are the problem. The problem is that, come election day, the “reasonable Republican” voters hold their noses and votes red, even though they don’t like Trump. So I see videos like Maddow’s, and especially that tik-tokker reacting to it, and it just sounds to me like “We need to do things to appeal to centrists” and I just don’t agree. I don’t. And I don’t agree because we’ve already been doing that. For 50 years we have been doing that. And it’s not working. Does that mean I think we’ve already lost? No. But I think this is barking up the wrong tree. I think we need to be who we are, unapologetically. I think that will make this party more attractive to more people, actually.

Now, when I will think that we have lost is if the Democratic Party nominates Gavin Newsom in 2028. I will not vote for him. I just won’t. No matter what. Even if the GOP has Trump illegally running for a third term, I will not vote for Gavin Newsom. If you think that makes me part of the problem, then so be it. But that’s the line I will not cross.

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47

Perhaps it would be better then for even Liz Cheney herself to begin to compromise with a single progressive cause. Like put meaningful effort into communicating the change. If this was meant to be an inspiring union… I can imagine there are actually at least one or two that she could have. Things like that are the kinds of shows of faith required. That would reflect an actual shift in centrists. Like Harris had pushed her left instead of Cheney pulling the Dems right.

For me I watched Cheney do an interview with Colbert I really thought unfortunately her unwillingness to admit to any of the mistakes that brought us here as if Maga and this entire mess wasn’t an outgrowth of their own agendas… I found that repulsive and irritating. How can you be forgiven if you don’t take even responsibility?

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48

tbh, I don’t give a shit if Cheney repents. Sure, we can use all the allies we can get, so she’s welcome on board the bus. But the Party doesn’t have to appeal to her voters, which is what Kamala did. There’s enough hatred of oligarchs on both sides that her pivot to the wealthy centrists was downright dumb. Had she unapologetically denounced the Gaza genocide and embraced the trans community, now that folks could have gotten behind.

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49

We don’t have to accept that as a fait accompli, though. In some ways, it’s an opportunity. Many interest groups that have traditionally supported Republicans have been shaken free due to the abuses of MAGA.

I still push back on the idea that either have been functionally centrist. If we judge people on their actions rather than words, then Biden and by extension Harris have to be given more credit for actual progressive implementation. I mean, utilizing Keynesian economic policies set them apart really from any administration in the last 50 years.

Do you really need them to admit they were wrong and we were right? What does that accomplish? It just seems very short-sighted, and more than a bit selfish to make that a criterion for coordination.

Groups like farmers and coal communities have been outright betrayed by T****. Why not use that to coordinate with them? Are we so selfish that they have to admit they were wrong and we were right before we can give them basic human respect?

I’ll say it again: I’m not talking about elections. I’m talking about collective action. Protest, boycotts, strikes, etc. Conservatives are already aligning with progressives without asking permission when they shout at their Republican politicians in town halls.

I’m with you 100% on that. I don’t think he has a real chance for that, but NOW is the time to work against him. October 2028 is way too late.

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50

Well I am because at the end of the day, that’s what matters. The other things may help, but if we don’t win the elections, we can keep protesting til the end of time and nothing will change.

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51

I kind of need them to stop blasting away at the rest of the progressives, though. Certainly more than I need someone who voted third-party to apologize for screwing up, which apparently does still get to be relitigated. I think that’s part of a double standard – always welcome the right and blame the left – that does not do us any favors.

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No. I don’t need to hear it from them but I do think the centrists that are being appealed to need to hear how and why they were led to believe the wrong thing, and those who have been misleading us all should admit how and why. Like that needs to be explained honestly. Who has wronged them, how, why, and what is going to be done to address it etc?

Furthermore of these very people I do also think it is fair to ask will they hold their noses and work with the rest of us? Or are some voters/allies going to be effectively alienated instead in the hopes that the coalition drawn is stronger for it?

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53

Are you referring to party leadership or specific officials? I agree we need more input from the voters to change direction to the left. What I’m not clear on is who was doing the misleading. :thinking: Can you clarify?

I was thinking this would be more of a demand than an ask. They need a broader coalition to succeed, and we have to make it clear more of the same (or a worse move to the right), ain’t it.

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54

Sorry, that’s just not true. What we do now to resist fascism makes a whole hell of a lot of difference even if we do get fair elections in 2026 and even if Democrats win back majorities in Congress. What country, what world will they be dealing with? Are they going to be dealing with a hellscape and constant emergency actions, setting them up for failure in 2028? Because all too often, that’s the yo-yo effect that we experience: Republicans break shit and Democrats spend all their juice fixing it in time to be blamed for what Republicans broke. Or can we hold our ground so that they can make some progress in 2027?

Who is doing that? The same corporate Dems we already agreed were worthless? I’m not talking about them. Again, I’m not talking about politicians, even.

I don’t give a shit if they apologize. They need to help or get out of the way. It’s not remotely a double standard. It’s the exact same standard applied to corporate Dems, conservatives, whoever. Pitch in or shut up.

And I think where they were resistant to that message before, they are more open to it now. But it can’t be in the form of an “I told you so.” It has to be forward-facing. “This is what we both need and this is how we get there together.”

Precisely. That’s what leadership is. Listening and clarity of purpose.

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I think my last edit clarified but I think when it comes to misleading I mean both. Literally anyone who has had a part to play and now is in the public and actually wishes to unite people against the Magats across massive psychological/social divides such as those that are currently separating us. Especially people who directly impacted something like, say, Manchin. By way of example, if he truly cared to stop fascism he would admit how and why the people have been failed and his part in it rather than leaning into the narratives that keep them confused and believing things that don’t actually reflect their self-interest or their realities. Instead he tries to find a balance with the power brokers of their community by blaming others whom coincidentally the fascists also blame.

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So look, I’ll admit it hasn’t been clear to me you are talking about. The only ones you explicitly mentioned at the start were former Jill Stein voters, for whom all you’ve had to say is that they’re worthless. Now you’ve also mentioned farmers and coal communities – presumably as mostly former Republican voters – whom you’ve said we need to treat with respect. Do you not see why that difference between two groups of mistaken voters looks like a double standard to me?

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57

Are *progressive" dems really the ones so prejudiced and bigoted against these people though? I 100% agree that there is actual prejudice against them in the democratic party. And contempt as well. But I think we have to hold space for the possibility that this narrative is not actually true and is even part of an astroturfing campaign or some such. I feel a bit about progressives in this case as I feel about feminists when redditors blame them for dv against men.

Besides… We can only mitigate the things others say anyway because we definitely can’t control it. But if I can scroll past people saying my state should be left to rot because it’s full of degens, or that the women here deserve to die because they’re all republican anyway… then the coal miners of Pennsylvania probably can too.

Surely expecting from them only as much as I expect of myself is fair?

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No, because I’m not talking about all 860,000-some Jill Stein voters (thanks again for the correct number, BTW). I’m talking about the ones who, RIGHT NOW, won’t work with groups like Indivisible on protests; who ridicule peaceful protesters for not being effective without violence; who leave meetings in a huff because their climate radicalism isn’t the center of attention; who continue to insist that there is no difference between Democrats and MAGA Republicans. THESE ARE REAL PEOPLE WHO I DEAL WITH IN REAL LIFE. Maybe it’s because of where I live, but while they aren’t the majority, they are a loud, not insignificant number of people here. They range from “look at me!” attention-seekers to downright dangerous disrupters.

No, I’m including folks who don’t really consider themselves as Democrats, and many who are further left than progressive. But also a lot of single-issue voters who, by all rights, should be allies but demand full focus on their chosen issue all the time, like someone who wants everyone to help them fix the refrigerator while the house burns down around them.

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^^THIS^^ In addition to Congress, support for those slowing or stopping the regime in the courts is also critical. We definitely need the public to hold their ground and push back where and when they can.

I understand the sentiment, but cannot share it. Maybe it’s because I’ve been involved in politics for a long time, but apologies are rare beyond election night condolence speeches. TBH, I haven’t seen Manchin’s name for a while. Those who are no longer in office are even more unlikely to give that satisfaction to anyone except their donors. Given his actions and changes in party affiliation, I’d rather spend my efforts elsewhere.

Oh, I’ve seen a lot of this from the 92%. They express how betrayed they have been feeling every time it comes up.

The major difference I’ve seen in levels of respect are more between GOP voters and those who did not vote at all. For those who have been historically disenfranchised, that’s huge. TBH, they are looking for the apology in that scenario. However…

At this point, I believe it’s a waste of time and energy to focus on blaming and shaming. We’re in a battle now, and it’s bugging me more how that plays into the hands of the regime. They are stoking the dissent, and really hoping we don’t get ourselves together in time to stop them. If we don’t join hands and do the hard work now, shame on all of us.

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60

Ok. That was deeply not obvious to me. I mean, I do know those people exist. I also know people who oppose a dictatorship but find it more important to sneer at people who care about woke stuff like civil rights and a survivable climate exist. No idea about the actual proportions where anyone is.

But I do know that the push to accept the right and abandon progressives is a real thing, and I would suggest it’s really important that messaging doesn’t look that way. Even from you, someone I know and trust, it still comes off as incredibly dispiriting. Part of building a coalition is making sure people don’t feel like they’re going to be thrown under the bus for the sake of other interests, and it’s one where I think the Democratic leadership could do a lot better.

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61

Then you haven’t been reading what I’ve been writing. I’m not talking about abandoning progressives. I’m writing from the perspective of progressives. I’ve never said anything like that. What I’ve been saying is that we (as progressives) need to be open to coordinating action with anti-fascists of all political leanings, across the spectrum, regardless of past animosity. And just as important, be willing to stop spending time, energy, or resources trying to drag into such a coalition people who want to derail that effort - again, across the spectrum, even regardless of past alliance. The Big Tent that matters right now is anti-fascism. If that effort is lost, the rest doesn’t matter.

ETA: Did you watch the videos I linked from Parkrose Permaculture? It’s OK if you didn’t, but those videos have formed the baseline of what I’ve been trying to discuss. Maybe that’s the misunderstanding?

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