Own the libs?
10 Likes
Iāve had some weird experiences with Baptist missionaries abroad. It was very much an Up with People vibe.
In Japan I was (in a very friendly, saccharine manner) prevented from leaving their church until I agreed to a full dunking baptism.
I Kazakhstan I had a bizarre religious discussion that started out with the beatitudes, and ended with the missionary claiming to have special insight into the teachings of Jesus because he read the Bible in the original Aramaic.
I donāt know the circumstances around the community near you, but that sort of unity and group think isnāt all that unusual in an immigrant community with limited language skills and few if any support options outside their tight knit community. Fear of expulsion from their only support network is a powerful enforcement tool, whether wielded conscious or not.
Usually it begins deteriorating with the next generation as they acquire language skills and integrate more into the local community, but not always, especially if there is hostility to their community.
I donāt envy your situation, Doc. I sincerely hope it doesnāt get bad over there.
15 Likes
16 Likes
This is a confusing report of a confusing issue. The underlying problem is that there is no long-term data to say that melatonin is safe for kids. There is also no nothing that says it is not. But the thing that gets me, as a pediatrician, is the fact that it is so frequently marketed as a ādrug-freeā sleep aid. Bullshit! It is a fucking drug! But since it is marketed at a āsupplement,ā there is no regulation of its marketing or its content.
Many products also have considerably more melatonin than is listed on the label. Last year, a US Food and Drug Administration team analyzed melatonin content in 110 products that appeared in online searches for things like āmelatonin + child,ā and found dozens of mismatches. In one case, a product contained more than six times the amount on the label.
And parents seem to think that since it is ādrug freeā that they can give as much as they want. And I cannot site any data to say what is dangerous. Because it appears it is not, at least in short term use.
Mostly, nothing happened (after children ingested large doses): Among small children, the large majority of the incidents were resolved without the child experiencing symptoms at all. When symptoms do appear, they tend to be mildādrowsiness, for example, or gastrointestinal upset. (Achieving a lethal dose of melatonin appears to be virtually impossible, said Laura Labay, a forensic toxicologist at NMS Labs, which provides toxicology testing services.)
But there are certainly cases that make you wonder. But no data. Nothing. But this struck me as worth investigating:
In a 2021 journal article, David Kennaway, a professor of physiology at the University of Adelaide in Australia, noted that melatonin can bind to receptors in the pancreas, the heart, fat tissue, and reproductive organs. (Kennaway once held a patent on a veterinary drug that uses melatonin to boost the fertility of ewes.) Distributing the hormone over the counter to American children, he has argued, is akin to a vast, uncontrolled medical experiment.
Of course, there is no medical investigation that is going to happen in the US now. Maybe the Aussies will look into it?
18 Likes
When talking to parents, maybe you could try that too much melatonin can impact mood and give headaches? If you suggest it as a ākeep an eye out for this effectā sort of thing, their own confirmation bias may reinforce using it less frequently.
Itās very scary some parents use it every night.
We use a low dose melatonin occasionally. I found the lowest dose I could and we keep it down to once a week( or none) and only school nights. Twice on a really rough week. Our pediatrician is ok with the dose and frequency. He did caution us about using it too often. I tend to wait until I know she isnāt sleeping before giving it and try some snuggles or back rubs first. If she is awake late on a weekend, we just let it go as long as sheās being quiet and not doing something exciting.*
Now that she seems to be getting into herbal teas, I might try substituting some chamomile tea. Iāve also considered trying to find some sugar pills and seeing if it was mostly placebo effect for our kid.
Sundays we try hard to get her some serious exercise to help sleep
We used to give a higher dose more often but then determined it was affecting our kidās mood. More easily upset, less ability to emotionally regulate. More complaints about headaches. Much harder to pry out of bed in the morning.
This tracks with how I feel if I take an adult dose. Now, Iāll use the low dose if I need help getting to sleep on a work night.
*Edit: if she is doing anything exciting, one of us will go stand by her bed and pat her back.
13 Likes
8 Likes
Biggest side-effect Iāve seen is really vivid and sometimes disturbing dreams. Not really nightmares, but weirdly vivid what I would call āstress dreamsā (if I were the one having them.) If your kitten is into herbal teas, try some valerian or passionflower, both slightly soporific. The valerian will need to be in combination with something strongly flavored, like mint or anise or something, because it reeks like old sweat socks. My biggest issue, as with all the commercial herbals (and a big chunk of why I grow my own) is that there is no requirement at all that the contents of the bottle are in any way consistent with the label. It can run from zip-nada-zilch to many times the dose listed, and there is no way to know unless you are running an analytical chem lab in your basement. (And if you are, I have questionsā¦)
15 Likes
I find sticking to a bedtime routine is really helpful. Shower, chamomile tea, brushing teeth, and bunny petting. If if the day was an especially busy one, also some bedtime snuggles. Used to include a bedtime story, but she outgrew that. 
None of it actually affects sleep, per se, but instead preps her mind-body that itās time to sleep.
Also set her devices to go into sleep mode half an hour before absolute bedtime, though sheās been more interested in drawing lately.
13 Likes
Oh, we absolutely have a long and involved bed time ritual! No devices for an hour before she hits the covers
@Docosc
She liked a tea we made that had a little bit of Valerian root with lavender, tiny amount of mugwort, and mint.
Passion flower sounds good. Iāll definitely look harder into a sleepy spell tea 
tea would be better
As for dreams- this is why I donāt usually use any melatonin. Really messed up dreams. I usually have extremely vivid dreams as a baseline and melatonin turns that up to 11. The kitten doesnāt report any weird dreams when she takes it. Often when she hasnāt, but never when she has.
13 Likes
No. Justā¦ no.
11 Likes
Go to sleep right now or youāll get another cup!
11 Likes
10 Likes
Fennel?!?
10 Likes
It gives the tea a mild, licorice-like flavor. 
8 Likes
Thatās almost worse.
7 Likes
That would add another hour of rinsing out my mouth to the routine, ruining the processā¦unless the rinse involves something like this 
.
11 Likes
Licorice is a very polarizing flavor, like cilantro. I love it, my wife thinks there is no excuse for its existence. (For both)
17 Likes
As I like to say: donāt yuck my yum!
For example, I canāt stand fried chicken. Even the smell makes me want to vomit. But my kids love it, so I pick it up for them occasionally, and eat Thai myself instead (which they donāt like).
Also, love cilantro (ŠŗŠøŠ½Š·Š°). First time I had it was in Kazakhstan, and fell in love with it immediately. Fortunately the kids like it too.
14 Likes
12 Likes