The Devaluation of Music...?

Another couple of points:

How does the availability of time for hobbies affect the amount of music being produced? I know a lot of people have demanding jobs, families, elderly parents, etc. etc., but we’re no longer pioneers having to chop our own wood and grow our own food. (I’m probably being naive here; forgive me.) It just seems to me that there are a LOT more people being creative nowadays, and in the last decade or two (with the internet) it’s been possible for a lot of those to release the products of their creativity. Does this affect supply and demand? Of course Sturgeon’s rule applies, but still.

Related point: how does the availability of cheap home recording (not to mention technology allowing one person to do the guitar, singing, as well as percussion, violins, etc.) affect the amount of music being produced? Renting time in expensive commercial studios is no longer required in some cases.

Summary: many more people are being creative, which in my mind is terrific. But is it driving down prices?

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I think there is a huge difference between artists decided to put their music up for free and their music being put up without there knowledge, or being put up on streaming services, and receiving no compensation for their work. But you note that, so we agree there. I think people are misinterpreting what I’m saying as being anti-download or anti-streaming and I’m not arguing that. I’m arguing for artist control over their products.

Usually, the labels hold the copyright, so artists aren’t allowed to do so. This isn’t always the case of course, and many artists are much smarter about these issues and get better and more equitable contracts, but not all of them. It’s a systemic problem, I think.

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The Wu-Tang book also noted this phenomenon of a sort of “market glut” if you will. There is so much out there, that it’s hard for people to break through. Again, this gives labels leverage, because they can get music to places where it’s more likely to get heard.

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Did they really?

If they did, it’s a false expectation. Traditionally, musicians spend years to decades honing their craft, then record a bunch of songs, some good, some bad. It is kind of a crapshoot that the best songs aren’t always the most commercially successful, and same with the best artist. There’s a lot of luck involved. It’s like a spray-and-pray type of thing, and it takes a lot of effort to make that pay off. And when it pays off, usually it’s one hit that doesn’t have a lot of staying power… sometimes it’s a territorial hit that never makes it big outside a certain city.

Everyone going into the music business understands that music isn’t an easy path to wealth and fame. Even if they don’t exactly understand that at first, they learn fast.

Dude, just stop.

Your argument seems to be that music has no value, or at least very little value. It’s the little things like music, and art, and literature, that make my life less drab, and frankly that make it worth living. If I couldn’t appreciate these nice things in life, I don’t know what I would do.

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This is how I was in Chicago. I could go out, anywhere, and see top-notch acts for a small cover charge. It was far better music than I’ve ever heard on recordings, because it was more spontaneous and creative. A lot of recordings just sound overrehearsed in comparison. The musicianship is about the same quality, but the recordings sound more rigid, not to mention overproduced to the point where I’m hearing the production more than I’m hearing the musicians.

As Eddie Condon once said, “Everybody will buy a musician a drink, but no one will stand him to a ham sandwich”.

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It’s not just luck, it’s about what gets pushed to the forefront of public attention through the media by corporations. They still dominate the landscape for mass produced music, and we can’t just assume that it’s luck when there are mechanisms for getting music out to the public that are time proven and effective and involve the networks and connections set up by building up the industry over decades in a particular way.

I’d also argue that the vast majority of musicians don’t want to be rich and famous… they want to make a living. I think that’s another industry perpetrated mythology that people should want that, which allows them to push young musicians in certain directions on the promise of fame and wide exposure, as opposed to career longevity.

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They had that problem with recordings in New Orleans, too.

The best recording of a New Orleans artist is the Neville Brothers Live album. Most people outside of New Orleans have vaguely heard of the Neville Brothers (aka The Nevilles), but to people in New Orleans, they dominate. Each of the four brothers has their own side project, with Aaron’s solo career being the one most people are familiar with (especially his work with Linda Ronstadt). He’s actually the weakest member of The Nevilles, kind of a one trick pony with his falsetto. The other brothers are really gifted on instruments; he can only play the cowbell and tamborine. All of the Neville children (and grandchildren) are also talented, most notably Charmaine Neville, Charles’ daughter, who has a huge following in France and is a major diva.

Since Kaitrina, some of the New Orleans artists have gotten more well known. They’ve gotten exposure in New York and Houston. I’ve seen some higher quality recordings of their work coming out recently.

The Neville Brothers Live on Planet Earth is free with Amazon Prime.

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No. And I am disappointed that you would tell me to shut up rather than have a reasonable discussion.

Not at all. I love music. I pay for music. I pay for streaming services. But what I don’t think is that just because someone chooses to make music, they deserve some special treatment or some guaranteed lifestyle. The fact is that for the last hundred years there has been a technology that has given people who play music a special ability to earn money without any additional work. And in the last century, the rights of those artists have been expanded even further, to the point of actually stifling innovation and art. That’s drawn a lot of people in to the business who want to make a lot of money instead of necessarily make art for art’s sake. And now those people are whining that they don’t make as much as they should because technology has changed and they feel devalued.

Prior to recording technology, people wrote music, played music, and enjoyed music just fine. It was properly “valued” then. Maybe moving back in that direction a little bit would be good for everyone.

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Yep. The music industry ultimately sets the standards for what sells and what doesn’t, by controlling what people are exposed to. At least, that’s how things used to work, but I suspect that things are changing fast. People can get their hands on better music easier than they used to, and without much corporate involvement.

Still, there’s a certain degree of luck to which of an artist’s works becomes successful and which don’t. It’s not all talent and effort, it’s not deterministic at all. Once an artist breaks through all the bureaucracy, there’s still no telling how successful they will be, and how, and why.

This is true.

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Do you think this is true across the board, though? I think that some people have certainly benefited from streaming/downloading, but people also have to wade through a lot more music than ever before.

I also hesitate to make broad generalizations about people paying more for music based on the likes of music nerds like us. I’d suspect that on average more people pay far less for music than they used to, because it’s more freely available, not just for free on the radio, but for streaming for free or cheap or for download from non-official sources. It does get music out there, but is that the only goal.

I also agree that labels have not (for the most part, I think there are exceptions in the post-punk era for sure) been about creating a stable living for artists, but at profitablity for the corporation itself (and in the cases of the majors and large indies, lining the pockets of executives).

I actually don’t agree. Distribution and getting to the right ears is the key issue - if people just hear your song on a streaming service, and don’t hear the name or follow a link to a bandcamp page or to amazon, that’s a lost sale for more revenue than an artist is likely to see from a streaming service.

I’ve know plenty of talented artists who are more than good at what they do and are entirely capable of adapting, but still stalled in their careers, as they didn’t know the right people or happen to be in the right place at the right time, or they didn’t know how to exploit the system for their own personal gain. the music industry was never and is not know a meritocracy.

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I don’t know about that. People have been making the claim that the majors are done for a long time now, and they are still here, as far as I can see. I do think there are more spaces for indies, but that’s been true since the punk age, if you ask me.

But are they paying for it? Does it matter if people hear you, if they do not drop a dollar in the hat, as it were and if they have no real incentive to do so, because they don’t see what the artist is doing as actual work performed?

I wasn’t trying to suggest as much, but there is limited agency at play here. Some are better positioned to do well, because of their connections.

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I could agree with you to a point.

Individual works are overvalued. Some are undervalued. But to imply that music as a whole is overvalued is a bit of a stretch, is something you can’t prove, and is also something I couldn’t disagree with more.

Me either. Nobody is arguing that.

Ahaha no.

Without any additional work? Have you ever been in a recording studio? What are you talking about? This shit is never done in just one take. It’s hours in a studio for a few minutes of music, then a lot of production on top of that, and then someone has to figure out how to magically make money from that recording.

If by “without any additional work” you mean they can release one recording and be set for life, you’re still wrong. People get bored of hearing the same shit day in and day out. Even if a song is commercially successful, which is a big if, it is improbable that it will make anyone set for life. Even one-hit wonders have other songs, even if those songs aren’t commercially successful.

Yes, one song can be a commercial success, but that is extremely improbable, and it also takes a lot of extra work to get that one song, plus the same amount of work into God knows how many other songs that didn’t make the cut. Recording a song isn’t the golden ticket you make it out to be.

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Good point.

Most people are cheapskates who will download music from unauthorized sources and not even remember what it is that they downloaded, let alone go and see the band perform live. People, what a bunch of bastards…

But it’s all about how much control the band has over their music, IMO. Digital media is a tool that can either help or hurt the artist. I don’t want the artist to be ripped off, either by record labels or by randos who steal their music.

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Ahaha yes.

I’m talking about how one person can spend an hour (or a day, or a week) recording their “work” and then get a revenue stream from that for as long as its popular. Outside of the “creative” industries, nobody else can do that. It used to be if someone played a good song, they got paid for that night and that was fine for them. When did the standard change? When other people started making money off of that one performance because it could be recorded and then played at a different time, in a different place. So sure, the artist deserves some of that revenue. But if the amount that someone else is making from their different time/different place performance is going down, does the artist still deserve to be paid the same amount? Are they entitled to that? No.

Yes, work is hard. Everyone works hard, from the teenager flipping burgers for $7.25 an hour to the ambulance driver stitching people up after an accident. You can’t argue that making music is any harder, or more complicated, than other jobs. It’s just not true.

Fine. So don’t do it for money! Why does it NEED to be a golden ticket?

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If you’re going to put it like that, then stop pretending to argue that you don’t think music, as a whole, is overvalued. It’s clear that that’s what you actually think.

Patent holders can.

Only to a very limited extent, but the same is true for musicians.

I wasn’t arguing that. I was arguing that it’s harder and more complicated than you make it sound.

Because you’re saying it does, when nobody else is saying that. It’s certainly not a commonly-held belief among musicians.

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If I can drill down further here, I really don’t think it’s cheapness or laziness - or not only that. I think it’s the whole mythology around the music industry of rock stars being rich. Even some musicians who have a high profile can still be struggling to make ends meet, despite showing up at red carpet events, getting out of limos (paid for by their labels, who take it out of the artists compensation). I do think that people disconnect the finished product from the actual, physical labor that goes into a song or album. it’s easy to do when it’s a commodity. Playing live, it’s easy to see the labor involved, but even then, getting to the poitn of playing in front of an audience usually consist of years of practice in the first place. But at least, at a live show, you see the person playing, sometimes dancing or performing, sweating, etc.

But it IS work. Labor is involved. It doesn’t just happen.

But often people never see any compensation for their work. Sometimes they make the calculation that it can lead to other revenue streams, and it can do that, and that’s okay when it’s the artist making the choice. I don’t think it’s always that case.

If you spend a week making, I don’t know, some wood working project. You take time and effort, you buy the raw materials, sand, cut, nail, glue, etc for a week or so and you end up with something that you intend to sell. Would it be acceptable to you to have someone just come and take it or pay a pittance for it, just because they consider it a work of art as opposed to a mass produced thing? I doubt you would, because you put time, effort, and money into this, so someone could use/enjoy what you made. How is music different in that calculus?

You don’t think so? How long before someone becomes a talented musician? How long before they are professional? I’m not arguing that music is special… I’m arguing that it’s like these other jobs, that we all do and expect to be paid for. the burger flipper (who should probably get a higher salary, since it’s unlikely they are a teenager, but a working parent) doesn’t do it for the joy of burger flipping. My aunt sure as hell didn’t stitch people up for 30 years for the pure love of helping humanity (though she certainly included that in her decision to do the job). Taking joy and pride in one’s work doesn’t mean you should do it for a free in a capitalist economy. In a perfect world, bit wouldn’t matter, but this is not a perfect world, it’s a capitalist one. People need to eat, pay their rent/bills, buy clothes, etc.

No one is arguing that, though. Fair compensation is not the same as saying all musicians should be rich.

Not always, but in some cases, it is. Again, we can’t go by our own personal morality, cause I suspect we are all music nerds, and willing to make sure that the artists we like get a share of the profits of the labors.

They have advertisers. Yet when artists (many of whom are doing this now) get some sort of advertising deals (selling songs to corporations or some sort of economic support deal), they are often called sell outs.

But again, are you the average cultural consumer or are you an outlier? I suspect the latter, since you said you worked for an indie label in the past. You get it, that people are working and buying their work means that they get some money for their work. Do you honestly think that the vast majority of consumers understand how the industry actually works and that their using a pirated version means that that is less money the pockets of the artists? do you really think people are making that connect? Cause I don’t see that, honestly.

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The premise of this thread is that music is undervalued.

I would not say music is overvalued. I would say some musicians are overcompensated, and it seems the ones who think they are undercompensated blame technology, when in fact who they should blame is themselves either for not making a better deal, or for not creating a more popular song.

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I would think Metallica’s music is pretty damn popular.

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Which is why they made $86,000,000 last year from concerts alone. I’ve got no tears for Metallica.

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Nice job putting “work” in quotes.

And “an hour”, really? I’ve honed my craft so that the sort of music I make – not commercially viable, not professionally mastered, not written to any particular spec but whatever comes to mind at the time – can often be done in a 3 hour session. That’s after hundreds of thousands of hours honing that craft.

Conversely, I was involved in an album project involving about 20 people, which took several months of preparation and several weeks of recording. It was crowdfunded for $5700 – which paid for mics and stands, recording equipment, cases, soundproofing, and mastering services (which was, as it happens, complete crap and I could have done better myself). It didn’t pay the musicians, the recording engineers (themselves group members), or me for dozens of hours spent on remixes or having my personal studio gear tied up for 6 weeks or the additional software I bought.

Meanwile: “capitalists” in general have a revenue stream based entirely on owning capital, whether or not they work at all. Rentiers and heirs to fortunes make more by doing nothing than most of us can make no matter how hard we work. Owners of IP often have a revenue stream from work that was done once, whether it was from inventing a technology that is licensed, or writing a novel, or convincing a government that they now own a portion of the human genome – some of that is fair, some not so much.

I have an author friend who’s been published in several fantasy anthologies. Her royalty checks, when they arrive – sporadically every few months or so – might pay for a meal. That’s the magic of an ongoing revenue stream from doing something once… or rather, a dozen times or so.

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