Words like stupid, idiot, and dumb ... a discussion of permissible use

[LockeCJ]

@RatMan

This site is dying.

Ouch.

@RatMan

It’s a rare day that there are more than 10 or 20 comments posted, and a rare WEEK when a single new topic posts. There are maybe three or four people here who continue to post on a more-or-less daily basis. Over the past couple of years, many, many more than that have gone silent or left the site. Engagement is at an all-time low. You may recall, a couple of years ago I brought my brother over here, hoping to add some new blood to the site. It didn’t work. I asked him why he never comes here anymore. His answer was “it’s boring and there’s nothing new.”

I started to dig into the data to see how true or false this is, but it merits more labor than I can handle at the moment. There is much to discuss on this topic, and I would like to have that discussion, just somewhere else.

@RatMan

I had high hopes for this site when we started. We had such plans for it. None of them have come to fruition. Our fearless leader has mentioned several times that they are concerned about the level of engagement, but that is the end of it. Engagement by the owners and mods is so low as to be nonexistent. Say what you will about the management over at BB, they are engaged.

I’m struggling to find a way to interpret this as anything other than criticism, but I’ll try to respond as honestly as I can. First, a clarification: There is exactly one owner of this site (myself) in the sense of someone who pays the bills and keeps the site running (relatively) smoothly. There are also exactly two admins/moderators with elevated privileges on the BBS, @ChickieD and @tinoesroho. I do not have requirements or agreements with them on their level or participation. They are volunteers, and I absolutely appreciate how generous they are with their time. I also appreciate how generous everyone else is who chooses to participate here, yourself included. I cannot speculate too deeply as to the reasons for changes in other members’ participation, but I can share some of my own challenges. I was just another user on BB, but here whenever I post something it has the additional weight of representing the site as well. Sometimes this extra weight leads to self-censorship, because I don’t want to potentially alienate an already limited audience. Other issues are probably less interesting. Sometimes I’ll post something that I think is genuinely interesting, only for it to be more or less ignored. It’s not anyone’s fault, but it can definitely be discouraging. I’m sure I’ve done much the same to others. Another aspect that I think would be irresponsible to ignore in this comparison is that BB is a profit seeking entity, and the management and authors there are presumably being paid to interact with the audience. While being paid to do something doesn’t necessarily increase a desire to do it, it does at least make it easier to allocate time for it.

@RatMan

I have done my best to participate here and try to keep the site alive. If it’s going to die, maybe it’s time to let it go. If the owners and mods want to try and make the system run itself without participation, just give up and end it already.

Thank you for joining, and thank you for continuing to participate. Genuinely. I don’t want to see anyone leave, but I will also have no plans to continue running a site with no users. I wouldn’t characterize my post up-thread as advocating for the “system running itself without participation,” but I apologize if it appeared that way. I was trying to contribute to the conversation by detailing some of the options that are available in lieu of involving moderators every time certain words are used.

@Nightflyer

I’ve described this site to others as our “Lounge away from ‘home’,” and I think it still fits. It was created as an escape hatch from the BBS back during the Regularpocalypse days… and I think it still more-or-less serves that purpose. It’s a place by and for our Mutant community, away from the annoyances of the BBS.

Thank you. That more or less fits the original goals I had. I think it could be more than that, but wanting things does not make it so.

@Nightflyer

I know I haven’t been spending as much time here as I used to, even before my recent technical difficulties. But I’ve also been less active on the main BBS. Before I hit reply, I ask myself, “is this really interesting, or amusing, or useful enough to be worth posting?” And more often than not, I can only say “no” and hit Delete instead. >shrug< I’m working on that.

I know for me it certainly feels like there is a lot more life to get in the way than there used to be. I know I appreciate your contributions here, and I’m sure others do too.

@Nightflyer

I like how we all can take part in this discussion of rules and language, and decide as a community how we’re going to go forward. I don’t think we’re at the point of needing to auto-mod words just yet, unless that would make things easier for our Mod team (and I suspect that needing to approve posts would create a lot more work for them instead.)

My general thinking was to automatically add spoiler tags around certain words so that they wouldn’t be as immediately troublesome. Maybe it would actually have the opposite effect by drawing attention to them. Having a conversation about it at least lets us share our thoughts. Also, I think it bears mentioning that this group is overall extremely well behaved. There are so few flags in general that it is legitimately stressful to me to see the red dot show up at the top of the page.

@kxkvi

My understanding of the phrase “politically correct” was originally used by some liberals to refer to things they thought off the scale of being sensitive to something or other. Then conservatives stole the word and used it to disparage all liberals.

From Wikipedia:

The phrase politically correct first appeared in the 1930s, when was used to describe dogmatic adherence to ideology in authoritarian regimes, such as Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia.[5] Early usage of the term politically correct by leftists in the 1970s and 1980s was as self-critical satire;[8] usage was ironic, rather than a name for a serious political movement.[13][14][15] It was considered an in-joke among leftists used to satirise those who were too rigid in their adherence to political orthodoxy.[16] The modern pejorative usage of the term emerged from conservative criticism of the New Left in the late 20th century, with many describing it as a form of censorship.[17]

@kxkvi

In the case of Blazing Saddles, probably the most inflammatory word used was the n word. However, it was used as satire, in a movie where stupid (ignorant, uneducated, rude, whatever) white people were mocked effectively. The black sheriff was the hero.

There’s actually a really fantastic essay about Blazing Saddles by Lindsay Ellis, but it appears to be exclusive to Nebula. It’s one of many good reasons to subscribe, but I think you might be able to watch a single video for free. One of the key discussion points is that of course you couldn’t make the exact movie Blazing Saddles today because at least part of the value of it is that it is in conversation with other media of the time. She specifically points to Jojo Rabbit as an example of a modern movie that pushes boundaries in similar ways. I think this is similar to arguments for removing the confederate battle flag from various state flags or removing monuments celebrating historical figures/events that are more problematic in modern times. We shouldn’t seek to erase or rewrite history, but we should try to place those things in their appropriate context.

Lindsay Ellis

@kxkvi

There are a lot of good people here; fewer than before alas. But as (I assume) friends, I think we could be a little more forgiving, and worry less about trying to make things perfect. I doubt anyone here uses inflammatory words to anyone’s face as a deliberate insult. So maybe we could keep the flagging to a minimum.

It’s worth reiterating that there are extremely few posts flagged here, which can have the unfortunate side effect of making those rare events have outsized effect. I think we can also, separately, have a discussion about the language we use and how it can affect others. For me, I have made it a personal goal to remove the words crazy and gypped from my vocabulary as much as possible. The first because of the ways that it has been used to other an historically marginalized and stigmatized group, and the second because of its origins relative to a marginalized ethnic group. I can appreciate how it is difficult to change habit like that, and I can also appreciate how jarring it can feel when someone casually uses a word that you have decided not to.

@howaboutthis

Words that are commonly known to have been born of hatred should never be used, but most words have obscure origins, or origins that most people do not know about, and most people can not be expected to research the origin of every word that they might possibly use.

It’s slightly more nuanced, though, in situations where you know origin and the problematic meaning of a word and continue using it. It takes effort, and just trying to communicate in the first place takes effort. I think it’s reasonable not to ascribe malice without further evidence, though.

@DaakSyde

And quotes and cultural references are quite another thing. To edit them to more acceptable terminology would be counter-productive. For instance, if you changed the punchline of that Blazing Saddles joke to some currently appropriate and acceptable euphemism for the archaic medical meaning instead of a pejorative, that would actually make it offensive (or at least definitely much more offensive). And the same for the quote above.

I generally agree with this, although there does exist an edge case where someone uses a quotation in order to use a taboo word indirectly in order to skirt around a community rule. I don’t think I’ve seen an example of this here, but that is another aspect to how difficult it can be to make clear and useful community guidelines.

@MarjaE

How do you keep this space from degenerating into so many other internet spaces?

Carefully, and together. Having this conversation (relatively) out in the open is, I think, evidence that there are people who genuinely care about this place, and by extension the people here(or is it the other way around?)

@RatMan

But sometimes they get it wrong, and this is one of those times.

There were flags issued on two posts. Those flags were reviewed by a moderator and their determination was to ignore those flags and let the posts stand as-is. I’m failing to see how that moderation decision differs from the arguments you’re making above. Separately, this conversation was resumed in order to explore the complexities around how we choose to use language. As far as I can tell, no one was punished.

I think I’ve gone on long enough for one evening.

Duty Calls