That’s the crux of everything isn’t it? Who is going to enforce anything? What leverage is there if a judge finds that they are breaking the law?
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Even Pelosi thinks Schumer got this wrong.
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Sure, I get that, but my point is at what point have they shown that they’ll follow any rules other than their own? They don’t care about the rule of law and have no plans to abide by it, from what they’ve shown us so far.
Because the US Marshals are under the authority of the DOJ and the DOJ under Bondi is carrying out Trump’s orders, not the courts.
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But that’s not the full story. They claimed the people WITH them were US Marshalls. When news outlets asked the DOJ, DOJ refused to confirm that those were Marshalls at all, and (disappointingly) implied that they were NOT Marshalls. No one presented any IDs as Marshalls.
So, again, federal employees just need to ignore any unlawful orders. Where they are forced to do something without legal backing, they need to use or call in force to back them up.
I know it’s asking a lot. But it’s going to be a necessary part of holding our democracy together.
ETA:
But that only works for positive actions on systems and people they have access to. It doesn’t compel anyone else to do anything they say. A great example is receiving a message from DOGE that you‘ve been fired. It’s an unlawful order. Ignore it. You get a message from DOGE not to pay an NGO in Africa that’s doing malaria prevention. Ignore it and pay the NGO.
Most of the dangerous shit that DOGE has been doing depends upon federal employees following their illegal orders. They are not expert enough in how the government works to do this shit against noncompliance. We need to stop complying.
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Agreed on having federal employees ignore unlawful orders, but DOGE has yet to show that they care about the rule of law. I doubt a shut down will stop them from trying to continue with their hack and slash plans.
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Right, but if they aren’t allowed into buildings or systems, what is there to hack and slash? All they can do is play Fortnite if they have no access. A shutdown prevents access to federal buildings and systems to nonessential employees.
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Right but they keep putting people from DOGE into key positions in the various departments that they’re trying to gut… plus, the cabinet is pretty much onboard (despite the public kayfabe of infighting between them and Musk).
You might well be right that this will stop them, but I don’t know that I’m convinced of that. We’ll see. It does look like we might be getting the shut down, so I guess we’ll see.
Either way, everything about this sucks and none of it is doing any of us any good (except the oligarchs benefiting)… I wish we lived in a better time line…
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If they’ve been moved to a different department, then they are part of that department and subject to it’s rules and limitations. Someone from, let’s say Dept. of the Interior can’t tell someone from NOAA what to do. So it sets limits around what they can do that weren’t there when they were in DOGE and it was being treated like an unaccountable agency. That’s a huge deal when it comes to judicial review.
But, yeah, none of it is any good for anybody, on that I agree. I’d argue it’s not even helping the oligarchs. They are losing money and it’s not going to stop until this all gets reversed.
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But again, though, when have DOGE or those associated with it shown themselves to be concerned with such things as rules and limitations? And what if Judicial review does not hold? Who is there to enforce a court order? The various law enforcement agencies under the control of DOJ. See what I’m saying here? I agree with you that they should be bound by law, as well as rules and norms, and the courts have ruled so thus far. But what if that’s not enough to stop DOGE partisans within various departments - and everyone else has gone home?
So I don’t know… 
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I’m of the opinion that Elno and is boys do not feel constrained by any laws or rules and are empowered by the shitshow of an administration they are currently “running” to do whatever they bloody well please. So, not sure if the shutdown would have inconvenienced them at all. Of course, not having a shutdown probably won’t either, but maybe there will be more witnesses to their assholery? I don’t know, everything sucks and there are no good options. But I do know that leaving the appearance of having head-faked his most dedicated constituents is an incredibly bad look for Schumer.
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Yeah, that’s where I’m at too with DOGE…
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I do get what you’re saying. I’m just saying that only governs what they TRY to do. What they actually do is bounded by what others LET them do. People outside of MAGA/DOGE have agency. Between the various court rulings, they’ve had that reiterated.
If a building is closed for a shutdown because its workers are non-essential by the law, it isn’t abandoned. There are still locks and guards. DOGE could try to enter, but as nonessential personnel, they aren’t allowed legally in the building. The guard must stop them if they are following the law. If the guard lets them in, then they are subject to prosecution for violating the law.
This relates back to the whole nonsense that resisting MAGA actions by Democrats would “cause a Constitutional crisis.” Bullshit. The person shredding the Constitution is the one creating the crisis. Enforcing it is not.
I guess my point is, any given person might be willing to ignore the law or rules or limitations. But what they try to do vs what they are allowed to do depend on the compliance of others. It doesn’t matter one bit what DOGE tries to do if others don’t comply. Refuse to let them ignore the law, ignore the rules.
Without advocating violence, per se, what needs to happen is for some DOGE asshole to try to access some place or system they aren’t allowed and get shot or arrested. Whoever does so would have the law behind them. Does that mean they won’t face backlash? No, but anything that moves through our legal system would uphold their actions as correct.
These assholes only get away with illegally and unconstitutionally tearing apart our government if we let them. Yeah, since I’m not in the position of a government employee, I’m putting that burden on other people and it’s shitty. But yeah, it’s in their job description to do so.
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Money is real. Money is very real. If you don’t have enough money, you can die.
Money is imaginary. It’s a social construct. It’s worth what other people think it’s worth. If they think a note is counterfeit and they don’t accept it, then it’s worth nothing, or even has negative value because you can be punished for having it. If they think it’s special or rare, they might accept more than its face value, just because.
Both things are true.
If someone turns up with federal marshals, then those marshals have the authority of law. They can arrest you for not complying.
Some random guy does not have the force of law. They are not allowed to arrest you.
Law is imaginary. It’s a game we play. There is no “particle of law”.
Law is very real. If you don’t play by its rules, you can die.
How do you tell the difference, when they’re standing in your face with handcuffs and guns? Especially when you are still obeying the social contract and playing by the rules you’ve been taught all your life about obeying lawful authority and helping the police, and they are playing by a new set of rules that says that if they say they’re marshals and nobody stops them, then they are.
Everyone’s shocked. There was, for most people, lots of warnings (that most people also ignored), but no preparation. The rules they used to live by no longer apply, and the new regime are taking full advantage because they were prepared, and they’re relying on pushing through everyone else’s shock, and by the time everyone else actually groks that the rules are different now, it’s too late.
Expect Klein’s Shock Doctrine to be on the banned book list real soon now, if it isn’t already de facto.
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Except they weren’t Marshalls. They didn’t show ID and the DoJ’s response when asked “Why did you send Marshalls with DOGE to USAID?” was, “What makes you think we did that?”
Marshalls are required to present their ID or badge when asked for it or wear identifying information on their coat or vest. If they don’t do that, yet claim they are Marshalls, they aren’t. That doesn’t mean you fight armed persons with a stapler, but as soon as you are safe to do so, you call the real authorities, because your office was just raided by criminals.
If real Marshalls fail to present ID or wear identifying markers, you still call the authorities because they’ve violated the law and need to be held accountable - whether by other law enforcement, the courts, or the public.
The important thing is, don’t just shrug and comply. Letting people destroy the government isn’t much better than doing the destroying yourself.
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That’s kind of the point, though. There are protocols to be followed… If you, as the person with a crowd of large angry pushy people in your face, knows what they are, or what to do if they’re not followed.
We know what happened, so presumably they did call someone afterwards, but what happens when the police refuse to follow up? (Which I’m going to guess is what’s happening.) Because the police have been told not to. Because the police are under the control of the DoJ, and if there’s a complaint about pretending to be federal marshals, that would be under the purview of the FBI, and both of those are run by fascists now. So to extend the problem: it is also not impossible that the DoJ did send marshals, and they’re lying about that. Because it’s run by fascists now.
Power is now what you can get away with. There are procedures for things, but the whole point is that none of the old procedures or protections apply. Everything is now built on sand, and you can’t trust anything you thought you knew. If you can’t stop someone from acting as if they have certain powers, then in all practical effect, they have those powers.
And most people have a lifetime’s training in going along with what they’re told, because up until now that’s almost always been the right thing to do. Plus soaking in copaganda one’s whole life. (And there are two sorts of copaganda at play: the light side: Cops are basically good and worthy and noble, and everything will be sorted out for the best if you just go along; and the dark side: Everywhere is Gotham, and most cops are corrupt, which means you’d better do what you’re told because nobody is coming to save you and you’re screwed either way.)
You are absolutely correct that the correct thing now is to not comply by default. That’s a lot easier said than done when they’re in your face and you have absolutely no experience of what’s like to be in the way of the state when it declares you the enemy. There is a reason why the people who stand up and resist openly and obviously are, and should be, hailed as heroes. It’s because it’s so hard. And far, far too many of those people are only recognised posthumously.
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