I never said it was the only reason, nor even the main reason. The idea isn’t original with me; I hear it and read it from women. What @MissyPants wrote is surely the larger issue.
That said, I am more cautious around large dogs than I am around housecats, even though I firmly believe the cats thirst for my blood more greedily than the dogs do, and wouldn’t hesitate to pounce on me, toy with my fear and panic, and eventually murder me like a mouse, if our size ratios were reversed.
Really? That’s the message you got? That women find small acts of kindness threatening?
You might want to read the ‘why I’m afraid of men’ article. 'Cos no, that is not the takeaway. Unless you think holding onto a woman by the back of her neck and squeezing so she stays close to you on a first date is also normal.
Big red flag with these guys is they don’t offer, or if they do it’s not an offer but a command. If you’ll use your words and are happy to accept a no, you’re unlikely to cause offence.
Is that really so cryptic?
prints and frames on wall
Wait, what?
Where did you get that from this thread?
Want to actually help? Read this:
No, we are not saying we don’t appreciate kindness or courtesy, not at all.
I posted a story on the Victory thread a few days ago. I was trying to wrestle a taillight bulb out of my car’s assembly in the auto parts store parking lot, and a complete stranger came by to offer his help. Sure, I probably could have done it myself eventually, but I accepted, and thanked him afterward. It was a wonderful gesture, and a welcome reminder that not everyone in this world is horrible.
But. I have to admit, I was a little wary. Not because I wanted to be, but because I felt I had to be. Because while I don’t have the awful stories some women on the board have been brave enough to share, I’ve had enough negative experiences of my own to be cautious around strange guys. I’ve been catcalled. I’ve had men shout curses and call me a bitch when they didn’t get the response they felt they deserved. I don’t want to be suspicious of the people around me. But time and again, whether we experience it ourselves or hear about it from other women, we learn to be wary. Because we honestly do not know if some random guy on the street is genuinely friendly, or a predator in disguise. And if we guess wrong, we can get hurt, or worse.
So please, be friendly, open doors, help other people. We will appreciate it if you do. But please, please, don’t take it personally if we’re a little cautious. It isn’t personal. It’s not about condemning you. We’re just being careful, because we feel we need to be. I don’t know how else to explain it.
not really no. Unfortunately, I can’t read the article thanks to the work security.
I mainly skimmed the thread due to how long it was. Not the best way to get caught up.
That would probably be why.
Please read the thread in more depth before passing judgment. We’re far more reasonable than you’re making us out to be.
One thing I’d like to add to this here, is to be suspicious of that “but I’m a nice guy!” response. It might be worth reading through the How I Learned To Be Afraid of Men article under the lens that a lot of these frightening men are behaving that way due to that very defensiveness:
Again, if you are more sensitive to what a woman wants / is afraid of rather than feeling that need to prove yourself, you’re unlikely to make mistakes like this, and if this is someone you see frequently, they’ll learn to trust or distrust you based on your interactions. I wish I could say this was easy, but all social skills take time to develop and more than once I’ve run into a creepy-acting guy and thought, that could easily have been <younger, male enceladus>. Fuck up but learn from it, is the only way to live.
If you genuinely feel this way, please contact your local mental health services. I mean that sincerely.
If you don’t genuinely feel like that, you should be aware that those kind of remarks are very hard on those of us with mental illness who take suicide very seriously and not something to joke about. In addition, the way you phrased your post is very, eerily similar to the language used to manipulate people and keep them in abusive situations.
Again, if you genuinely are thinking of self-harm, please do contact someone.
See also: “You Think You’re Better Than Me?”
This response leads to Putting Her In Her Place™.
When women do these types of things IME, it’s often because the world is a scary place, not just because the guy is particularly scary. Usually it’s some mixture of the world being scary and the guy being scary. Meaning, it’s pushback against the man trying too hard to bulldoze through the woman’s already overtaxed defense mechanisms, rather than him earning her trust. Sure, it could be poor social skills, but it could just as easily be a sign of something much worse.
For me, it was hard to learn that I shouldn’t take stuff like this personally, because pushback like this is because the world is a scary place. It’s not a judgment of me as a person.
This is what needs to change. My sister is going through a sexual assault thing at work (not her, at least not her right now). The dude isn’t grabbing pussies, but he’s got a reputation for making women feel uncomfortable. In the wake of Weinstein, one woman finally filed a complaint and lo and behold! Women are now coming out of the wood work in the ensuing investigation, with comments from other men: “Yeah, we told the young associates to steer clear.” That’s the attitude that must change. Fuck pulling the new girl in accounting aside to cut a wide swath around Keith* – if you’re a person in power, say something. That’s your moral responsibility.
*no offense meant if your name is Keith. I just knew an asshole named Keith and that’s my go-to.
That’s a big issue. “I’m not one of those guys, why do I need to change? I’m supporting this initiative, isn’t that enough?”
On the other hand, I suppose it’s recognising unconscious biases on his part. But still.
No one said being a decent, kind person is unwelcome. I’m not sure you’re reading this thread with an open mind and really listening we’re actually saying about the issues in our life. If you help someone out, you shouldn’t do it, because it’s a woman, who is the “weaker sex” and needs men to help her navigate the world. If you do it, do it because it’s a nice thing to do that makes the world a little better for everyone. Don’t treat men and women in your life differently, treat them as if they are human beings, worthy of dignity and respect.
It’s not hard, dude.
Yes, @CameronH1403, let me echo this. Please do get help if you really feel like offing yourself.
This is what I get for not bookmarking this page so I can access this at home!
Yes yes, kill all men, obviously, I mean there is no other conclusion right? Political lesbianism for all women!
Good point.
I just try to be polite. I don’t favor one gender over the other, as far as I’m aware.
And that right there is the key!
We all suffer from unconscious biases! And even when we study it, even when subjects know they are being studied for unconscious gender bias and try to correct for it, they STILL display it unconcious bias!
“…teachers who tried to restore the balance by deliberately ‘favouring’ the girls were astounded to find that despite their efforts they continued to devote more time to the boys in their classrooms. Another study reported that a male science teacher who managed to create an atmosphere in which girls and boys contributed more equally to discussion felt that he was devoting 90 per cent of his attention to the girls. And so did his male pupils. They complained vociferously that the girls were getting too much talking time.”
Cultural and social conditioning starts even before a baby is born! People will tell that male and female babies act differently in-utero!! Its insidious and its part of every part of our society today. So while you think you’re being neutral and not favouring one over the other, you’re likely not, you’re likely as biased as everyone else.
This is why we can’t rest on our laurels and say “I don’t do this” - because we do, we all do it, and accepting that and learning from that and addressing it is the only way forward!
Yes, I have unconscious biases.
I’m still going to err on the side of politeness though.