The problems of the Democratic party

Not from me. I strongly believe in criticizing people for what they do wrong. But I do think it is important to judge them for their actual words and actions, not for what other parties try to attribute to them; and to give them room to listen and learn rather than to judge them by their position frozen in amber. If anyone should have driven home that message, it was Biden as president, who was an entirely different person than he was in his legislative career or even as VP.

Who is saying “candidates are what they are?” Judge a candidate by what they say and what they do. But voters should be expected to do at least a little work to differentiate between bullshit and honesty and to be able to discern at least some of the misinformation that has been rampant and quite obviously from outside sources looking to influence US elections. I readily admit that as an Oregonian, I am spoiled with our voting system of voting by mail, postage paid, with a handy voter’s guide that lays out every candidate, who supports them, and every ballot measure, that we can sit down and look at while voting at our leisure. I know that isn’t an option for voters in many states.

And the frustration I have with non-voters is that basic lack of engagement, and pales in comparison to the incandescent rage that I have for the fascists, so I’m not sure what you’re even getting at with that.

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But is it though? Who actually controls the levers of power within the DNC? Us, or wealthy donors?

I agree, but I don’t know that we are in control of this vehicle right now. As it stands, it seems like the vested interest of the elite class are who are in control of it.

Indeed and I have seen plenty of that in this discussion.

People have done so, and far too often, those people end up getting primaried by interests within the party.

Okay, but if our reps are in agreement with the leadership? Or if they get threatened with a primary challenge in a safe seat for not falling into line. Part of the problem here is that the party is more opaque the higher up you go, and less democratic as a result.

Just that they seemed to push that she was interested in playing footsie with the less noxious far right and trying to peel off moderate republicans than in listening to the party rank and file about other issues.

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It feels to me like a lot of people seem to get really mad at people not voting for Democrats the way they should, while letting slide Democrats not standing up for progressives the way they should. Harris should have been for human rights from the start because that’s what decent humans do. She shouldn’t have run with people like Liz Cheney showing that she was cool with Republican everything so long as it was legal. She lost the election with that garbage, leaving the whole world at risk. And here I’m being told not to be that upset with her, she eventually figured out genocide wasn’t cool, versus the electorate she very predictably alienated. Why the difference?

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Excerpts from Original Sin are starting to come out, and it seems pretty bad. I think Harris probably felt she couldn’t turn on a dime from following President Biden’s lead on Gaza to doing what was right (or tell the world her boss was wrong, even though he was).

Perhaps the most noteworthy sentence in Original Sin is this one about Kamala Harris: “The issue that she truly and most strongly disagreed with the president on behind closed doors was Israel’s war against Hamas in Gaza.” Her public echoing of Biden’s explanations for huge nonstop weapons shipments to Israel was both morally unconscionable and politically damaging. By a big margin, polls were clear that most Americans wanted to stop arming Israel.

I think the Democratic Party is pretty much rotten to the core. But it’s not the rotten-to-the-core fascist party. Two parties are not enough.

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Until recently, I would have said that Martin and Hogg were encouraging signs, but that encouragement has gone in the crapper.

I’d say we’re closer to control than we have been in decades, but not if we give up on it and try to build tricycles from sticks and leaves (by trying to make 3rd parties viable in national elections).

There is a whole hell of a lot of the other, though, and that is what I was addressing.

Yeah, I didn’t pick up on that as much as some folks here, but I very much trust you (both the specific you and the plural you like @Nightflyer and @tornpapernapkin ) to help me clue into it. But I do think Harris’ commitment to end the genocide in Gaza in a way that would preserve the Palestinian people was genuine. I just think it didn’t go as far as some people wanted, so instead the more likely outcome is the US carpet bombing Gaza and putting the survivors in labor camps to build T**** condos and hotels until they die. I don’t think that’s what any of us wanted but that particular purity test was a great example of what I’m talking about.

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That still mischaracterizes her position. When most politicians say “Israel has a right to defend itself” they aren’t primarily talking about Gaza, they are talking about Hezbollah, Iran, sometimes Syria. And it is very difficult for the US to stop supplying weapons to Israel to defend themselves from outside threats. So of course that policy has to evolve as it becomes clear that Israel uses those weapons against Palestinians (yes, that should get a “duh!” From anyone who is paying attention), as diplomacy failed to stop Israel from doing so, and as it became more and more clear that the Israeli government was going to continue on their genocidal path despite political pressure from inside Israel, from the US, and from the international community.

And don’t misunderstand that the Israeli government’s pursuit of genocide was for it’s own sake but also as an impossible political trap for the Biden administration. Bibi and the hardliners there clearly hate many Democrats and are buddies with T****. Creating that political trap was not an accident. And many, if not most, of the divisive voices influencing the American public were IDF misinformation agents.

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Sure, except that was long before Harris announced her candidacy. The world was already clear that there were war crimes being committed, and American weapons were being used for them, as Nightflyer pointed out contrary to its own law. It might have been a political trap for the Biden administration in that there was no answer that would be popular, but it is one where his administration very clearly came down on the side of “it’s not war crimes when it’s our friends”, which was disgusting.

And I am not at all convinced that when politicians say “Israel has a right to defend itself” they aren’t also referring to Hamas, and by extension allowing whatever collateral damage it is doing to the Palestinian people. Honestly I can’t remember ever hearing the phrase except to excuse their war crimes, the same way “all lives matter” means that black lives don’t.

International law matters. Human rights matter. Genocide is wrong. These should not be difficult things and I refuse to grade on a curve for them. Harris should have known that from the start, and we are all worse off from her cynical failure to stand up for them, which only served to help the fascists.

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Framing the problem as “Genocide is either wrong or right” is the trap. Because of course genocide is wrong. The question isn’t whether it is wrong but what to do about. That’s a lot more complicated and much worse when it’s being committed by a nominal ally being led by a minority government which is in conflict with the majority of it’s own citizens on the topic.

It’s a trap because full support for all Palestinians, including all active members of Hamas isn’t right. And being against all Israelis isn’t right - a majority disagree with the Israeli government about military actions against Gazans. It’s a trap because taking the perfect moral stance against war crimes by Israeli leaders and IDF is likely to worsen and prolong the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza. Allowing outside forces to attack Israel is most likely to cause harm and suffering to innocent Israeli civilians, and to some people, the only acceptable action by the US that isn’t considered “pro-genocide” is a military invasion of Israel.

So I’m doing my best not to take that framing as a personal insult. I am NOT pro-genocide. Recognizing that a diplomatic solution is probably the least harmful path is NOT pro-genocide. Setting aside a thirst for justice against war criminals in order to reduce harm as soon as possible is NOT pro-genocide. And ultimately, shy of an actual, bloody, military invasion of Israel, the US is NOT in control of the actions of the Israeli government. So while I am very angry and sad at the Biden administration for supplying arms to Israel as long as they did when it was clear that they were being used against Palestinian civilians, I don’t consider anything they did as pro-genocide, because they were working actively to stop it diplomatically and ultimately it wasn’t their genocide to stop.

Attributing decisive agency to the wrong people is a rhetorical fallacy. It’s not real. Could they have done more? Hell yes! Did they do nothing? Hell no! Could they have ended the conflict with enough pressure on Israel? Maybe. We’ll never know because instead we’re fighting fascism here while Bibi and T**** plan golf resorts where Palestinians are currently starving.

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And where does the Biden administration vetoing multiple UN resolutions declaring it wrong fit into that? I have never called you pro-genocide – even without Harris correcting her position, I have argued that supporting the Democrats was the best choice to minimize the total number of genocides happening. But if you’re going to claim that Biden wasn’t enabling all of this, and shouldn’t be considered at all complicit, you have a hard disagreement from me. Shipping weapons to a genocidaire after it’s being clear they’re being used to murder civilians, in contravention to your own law, and stopping other countries from opposing them in international venues is absolutely supporting their genocide.

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I see the UN vetoes as part of the ongoing attempt at a diplomatic solution. Netanyahu needed a way out. The more cornered he was, the more atrocities he was going to commit. Declaring him a war criminal while the killing was (is) going on wasn’t going to help bring and end to it. Frankly, the time to deal with war crimes and genocide is after the killing has stopped and the immediate, ongoing threat is over.

I don’t know if that “good cop, bad cop” diplomacy was going to work or not, but it didn’t really have a chance. I think Harris was probably going to be someone who could pull it off, but instead Bibi’s escape (for now) came with T****’s victory.

Yeah, I get to live with my unwilling complicity in that keeping me up at night. My tax dollars, spent by the folks I voted for. :rage: But I also saw Biden growing increasingly impatient with Israel and openly defying them more (airdrops and the supply docks directly to Gaza) and held out some hope for what a Harris administration could achieve with a more aggressive stance.

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Funny, I’ve heard that said a lot about Putin too, and yet somehow I don’t think shipping him weapons to slaughter Ukrainians would be excused the same way. Biden sent a very clear message to the world that the problem with him is he’s not America’s friend, not human rights or international law, and that will have its own horrible repercussions.

I think “yes genocide is wrong, but there are political considerations” is its own trap. Murdering thousands of people should be anathema. When people don’t treat it as anathema, they send a message that they don’t really value human lives. That’s great for fascists to win elections, it’s horrible for progressives, and either way it makes them disgusting people.

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That was about UN resolutions declaring Netanyahu a war criminal and declaring Israel’s war on Gaza a genocide, not about shipping weapons. And, yeah, I’d say the same thing about Putin if it was in the context about ending the war of conquest in Ukraine if it meant Ukraine could have lasting peace with their borders intact.

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So to try and round things back to the topic at hand, there’s this:

When I hear people complaining about “Democrats” but not putting a name to the deed, this is who I hear people complaining about. This is who I hear people making their job more difficult. Because “Democrats” means a lot more hard working, humble, good-hearted people like State Rep Proudie than it means fucking James Carville.

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But Democrats like her aren’t setting the agenda. Democrats like Carville are. And I don’t mean him specifically. I mean the old guard centrists who comprise the majority of the leadership. Everyone here knows “not all Democrats” are bad or corrupt or unduly influenced by big money. But the leadership is. And when a lot of us say “Democrats are doing this” or “Democrats aren’t doing that” we’re referring mostly to that leadership. I like you a lot, Duke, but at times today, you have sounded like those guys who insist on saying “not all men” when women complain about misogyny. We’re all aware that not all Democrats are part of the problem, and I don’t think any of us are saying that.

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Then I’ve failed to communicate effectively. I thought I was being clear that I’m not making excuses for old guard or corporatists or centrists, but the opposite of that. I thought I was communicating that being specific is more effective politically and generalizing is less effective. But that must not have come through, so I’ll stop. It’s frustrating, but I’ll pack it up.

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I mean the thing I’m sick of seeing is these kinds of good sincere salt of the earth women trying to push forward in the party and being undermined by the party itself at every step.

My god look at what they did with AOC. She’s still in the game but ffs that last appointment of a dying man only for him to resign? That’s some epic bullshit.

I don’t mean to be callous but you know you are sick… Why not pass the torch? Why not? I can’t think of any good reasons.

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Speaking of the gerontocracy…

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That, & Gore not even winning his home state.

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So what about the butterfly ballot paper in Florida?

There were more than enough people who accidentally voted for Pat Buchanan to hand the victory to Al Gore.

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Maybe this is a bad idea, but I’m going to take another stab at expressing what I tried to yesterday, and clearly failed.

First, I definitely offended some folks with my crappy writing yesterday. That wasn’t my intention and I know I messed up. I genuinely apologize.

My intention was to suggest how to communicate in a way that will get results and effect change. That might be rich given the above. I recognize the irony.

Venting can be therapeutic and has a place in discourse. I think Elsewhere should be a place where we can do that. Writing “Democrats Suck!!!” or variations thereof can be healthy venting. I don’t think it accomplishes anything else, though.

If the intent of communication is to effect change, I would suggest a different format of communication. This comes from several sources like the Resistance Lab and feedback directly from my representatives, not just me. Writing here, even though it doesn’t seem like it is an attempt to effect change, is communicating with others who will form opinions based on what we write and may act or not act based on those opinions. Essentially, we’re attempting to influence others to coordinate efforts, whether we want to or not.

When we’re reacting to a specific action or event, we should be specific. Who did it? What did they do, and why is it wrong? What do we want others to do about it?

So, for example, if I’m writing to my congressperson, I’m going to say “Chuck Schumer is failing to bring Senate Democrats together to vote as a block to disrupt the T**** Administration’s disastrous tariffs. While it might score political points for T**** to crash the economy, it’s the most vulnerable Americans who are hurt by this. If he can’t organize Senate Democrats, he needs to be replaced as Senate Minority Leader by someone who can organize an actual resistance. I ask you, [Senator], as a senior Senator in the party to find a strong replacement and push other Senators to replace Schumer with someone who can lead us during this emergency.”

Likewise, if I’m talking with my Indivisible group, I’m going to suggest we all write some variation on the above and push that priority out to the larger Indivisible organization.

The other thing that is important about communicating in this way is that the Democrats who are doing the right things will completely ignore the requests and demands of people who lump them in with the whole party. That isn’t about feelings - it’s about prioritization. No individual politician can make happen every request or demand that their constituents send them, even if they agree with them. They have to prioritize the requests/demands that are specific, actionable, and align with the direction from other constituents. If we lump them in with other Democrats who are doing stupid, corrupt, or ineffective shit, they are going to ignore us. If we tell them that we’re done with the Democratic Party, they are going to ignore us. That doesn’t mean we don’t express anger or frustration; it just means that anger or frustration needs to be channeled in a specific, actionable way.

If you’re frustrated with Democratic leadership, then say so. If you are angry about corruption in the DNC, say so. If you think a particular Dem is complicit then say so. But if you lump them all together in that message, they will ignore you. Anyone who is actively working to return democracy to the US and fight the regime will write you off as not being part of the solution. Because, again, whether we like it or not, the current political reality in the US is that the only vehicle (short of total breakdown of our Constitutional order) out of this fascist takeover is the Democratic Party. New parties take decades to form and build up the structure and resources to become viable. And we don’t have decades. We have months if we’re lucky.

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