Deprogramming

[LearnedCoward]

Basically I think the updates in this version are pretty damn good. And personally I applaud an end to mixed signals and a “hard-to-get” flirtation that risks misunderstanding consent. Flirtation can be perfectly fun and thrilling without duplicity, doublespeak, insincerity, and all that.

As do I.

Unfortunately, I seem to be one of the only people out there who thinks people should just speak their minds when interacting with each other. I personally think that “playing hard to get” is stupid. Then again, I also think it’s okay to tell a woman she does look fat in that dress. People should just say what they feel, no tricks or mindgames needed. The game confuses me, and I seriously wish it wasn’t played. But, it is played.

I was once in the middle of an extremely steamy embrace with a woman wherein things were unzipped and erogenous places were being fairly thoroughly explored. At a certain point, she breathlessly whispered in my ear, “We should stop.” And so I did.

This isn’t that, though. In this case, you were absolutely in the right. That is a classic example, and you did the right thing. Some guys believe there’s no takebacks, whether it’s “I bought you a drink, you have to go home with me” or “our clothes are off, we have to finish the job”. Holy shit. That right there is why I no longer go to gay bars.

It’s not a matter of no takebacks or whatever, it’s that (I feel) the woman character in the song is still sending signals, and the guy is acting somewhere between oblivious and uninterested. Yes, consent is important, but this never even got to the point of requesting consent. It was more social cues, and the loaded question of “should I stay or not?” Sex wasn’t even brought up. To me, this was more a matter of the woman wanting to stay, even for a little bit, and the guy being either oblivious or wanting to get rid of her.

Also, I admit that I may be wrong about this, and it’s only a minor point. To me, the big red flag is how the guy goes out of his way to prove that he’s not a rapist. Why? Is he virtue signaling? Does he think she will owe him something for being such a nice guy? And when it turns out that she doesn’t owe him jack shit, will he suddenly turn violent?

“I ought to say no, no, no sir”

Right. She ought to. This means that according to social customs, she should decline, not that she herself feels uncomfortable. But this is one of those cases where people should say what they mean, and say it clearly, rather than dance around with mindgames and silly social conventions.

[the_borderer]

is (mostly) in the Southern Hemisphere so of course there isn’t snow in December).

Mount Kilimanjaro | Climate

Snowfall can occur any time of year but is associated mostly with northern Tanzania’s two rainy seasons (November–December and March–May).

[LearnedCoward]

But where are they in Africa? Zambia? Chad? Senegal? It matters… a whole fucking lot.

Assuming that Darkest Africa is one big monolithic place, when in fact it’s 6200 miles long with vastly disparate geological features and several hundred different language families, is stupid and more than vaguely racist.

Thinking it’s some big huge fucking deal that they don’t know it’s Christmas* when we don’t know when Diwali is, is just plain imperialistic.

*except for the hundreds of millions of African Christians, that is

[teknocholer]

I mean, who would possibly think it would be okay to rhyme chacun a son gout with “without?”

That’s the joke (as I’m sure you know ). Given that it’s Flanders and Swann, I’m pretty confident that the reason is not a lack of songwriting chops on their part.

I take it to mean they are not seeing the man’s actions as OK.

No, but the song is still making light of an older man getting a teenager drunk to seduce her. Definitely creepy in my book.

…their otherwise leftist views…

Think they would have voted in favour of Brexit?

[Donald_Petersen]

I’m with you on almost all of your points. My only quibble is that, where you feel the guy in the song is being somewhere between oblivious and uninterested (possibly to the point of rudeness), I feel that his reaction is kinda the only reliably safe reaction for all involved given the verbal cues she’s giving him in the song… which is kinda the point of this version, I think.

To me, the big red flag is how the guy goes out of his way to prove that he’s not a rapist. Why? Is he virtue signaling? Does he think she will owe him something for being such a nice guy? And when it turns out that she doesn’t owe him jack shit, will he suddenly turn violent?

The only way this version works is if he means what he says. The song should be hammering home that he’s only doing what he thinks is right for the simple reason that he thinks it’s right, and deserves no cookie (or nookie) for it. He should not turn violent under any circumstances, but especially not if she takes him at his word.

The song is supposed to show how we should be reacting to the lines the woman sings in that song. Not how we historically have reacted, nor how we think we might possibly should be expected to be reacting judging by what she’s wearing, or the lilt in her voice, or that gleam we think we see in her eyes. We, as men, have long since proven ourselves less than adept at accurately reading such signals (particularly in environments where we’re alone with a lady and there are drinks present), and so we should not trust ourselves to rely upon them. We’re bad at it.

[the_borderer]

But where are they in Africa? Zambia? Chad? Senegal? It matters… a whole fucking lot.

Mount Kilimanjaro is 03° south of the equator. If it is snowing in December there (the hottest time of year in Tanzania) then there is a good chance that if you can see a high mountain somewhere else in Africa then you can see snow.

Thinking it’s some big huge fucking deal that they don’t know it’s Christmas* when we don’t know when Diwali is, is just plain imperialistic.

We’re in agreement on this. I’m criticising the song too, but I’m pointing out that it does snow during December in the Southern Hemisphere.

[LearnedCoward]

I feel that his reaction is kinda the only reliably safe reaction for all involved given the verbal cues she’s giving him in the song

Pressuring her to do something she doesn’t want to do, obviously, is very wrong. Saying okay, fine, go, whatever, is a bit dismissive. There’s a lot of middle ground though. He shouldn’t be forcing her to do anything, but there’s a lot more ways to not force her than being an oblivious jerkwad.

The song should be hammering home that he’s only doing what he thinks is right for the simple reason that he thinks it’s right, and deserves no cookie (or nookie) for it.

Yet he’s literally singing about being a minimally decent human being. You can see how I don’t trust him.

Not how we historically have reacted, nor how we think we might possibly should be expected to be reacting judging by what she’s wearing, or the lilt in her voice, or that gleam we think we see in her eyes.

Totally right, if a bit reductive.

If course she wasn’t “asking for it” or anything.

But I don’t even think it got that far. There wasn’t even an “it” to ask for.

We, as men, have long since proven ourselves less than adept at accurately reading such signals (particularly in environments where we’re alone with a lady and there are drinks present), and so we should not trust ourselves to rely upon them. We’re bad at it.

Completely agree.

[nimelennar]

See, I told you I suck at geography.

[LearnedCoward]

Yes, but not everywhere in the southern hemisphere. Africa is such a huge continent that not everyone has seen a mountain with snow on it in December, especially in the southern hemisphere. Even if they had seen a mountain like that, they likely wouldn’t have gotten close enough to actually see the snow up close.

I know at least one person in Africa who has only seen snow once, ever, and who says it’s 45C on Christmas there.

Also, Africa is 11000 km long. It can fit something like two and a half Europes. What you just said makes slightly less sense than saying that people in Ireland can see the Bosporus from their house.

[the_borderer]

Are we are still talking about the lyrics “There won’t be snow in Africa this Christmastime”?

[LearnedCoward]

Depends where in Africa, obviously.

That’s my main issue. Treating Africa like it’s just one monolithic thing, when we’d never confuse Ireland with Turkey.

That, and the racist imperialism, of course. But you’d have to be pretty imperialistic to think that in the first place.

[the_borderer]

I think we’re arguing about something we agree on. I’m arguing that a monolithic view (there’s no snow in Africa during December) is bad and wrong, and you are arguing that it is true for some people (which I don’t disagree with).

The song was about Ethiopia, which means the song still isn’t true. You get snow in the Semien Mountains close to where the 1983-5 famine was worst, you can see it on satellite images.

[Donald_Petersen]

Pressuring her to do something she doesn’t want to do, obviously, is very wrong. Saying okay, fine, go, whatever, is a bit dismissive.

But he never did that. Everything he said was gracious, polite, appreciative. That’s why I liked it.

[gadgetgirl]

There won’t be snow in Africa this Christmastime”?

“There’s no snow in Addis Ababa at Christmastime” still scans

[Wisconsin_Platt]

Right after “Do They Know It’s Christmas.”

Thanks

Earworms - I just can’t get you out of my head!

[Purplecat]

“There’s no snow in Addis Ababa at Christmastime” still scans

Another interesting thing about that song is that In Ethiopia, it won’t be Christmas at the same time as it is here. Not only are the vast Majority of Ethiopians Christians Orthodox (who will be celebrating on January 7th instead), in 1984 Ethiopia was still operating on a separate calendar:

Ethiopian calendar

So the response to the question “Do they know it’s Christmas?” Would actually be that for “them”, it isn’t Christmas yet, and if we could agree on a Date for Christmas with them, it would happen at different times.

Still, despite all that, the actual, real world result of this single was to raise millions and save countless lives, and continues to do so, as the royalties keep rolling in each year, so on balance, I’m not going to be sniping at it.

[gadgetgirl]

Still, despite all that, the actual, real world result of this single was to raise millions and save countless lives, and continues to do so, as the royalties keep rolling in each year, so on balance, I’m not going to be sniping at it.

Maybe it’s just jealousy or anti-St. Bob sentiment, but I’ve heard more than one person claim the food made it all the way to Ethiopia… and then either rotted at the dock or got stolen. I hope not.

[LearnedCoward]

So, the song should be called “They Know It Isn’t Christmas”

[Melizmatic]

Pretty much everything.

I was just talking about this at the other place; how I introduced my kid to all the movies and pop culture I loved in the 80’s and 90’s, and how I’ve been chagrined by how much homophobia and transphobia is prevalent in them; not to mention all the casual sexism that we just took for granted as “the way things were.”

[kxkvi]

Think they would have voted in favour of Brexit?

Not really. Seems to me that song was a pretty clear satire of nationalism.