Even the creepiest centrist is going to be less creepy than the fascist.
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I have trouble giving politicians a bye on bad behavior that we wouldnât give someone who isnât a politician.
We struggle with this nationally in my profession. Suppose someone is a first-rate, exceptional scientist; if they are a groper of their students, is it enough to keep them out of the classroom, or do we fire them and make sure they canât work again? What if they are making real progress on problems like global warming?
I canât evenâŚ
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I donât understand. You donât see this as a conundrum? If not, which is the âobviously rightâ choice?
The fuck?
A âserial groperâ is also known as a âserial sexual assault-erâ and any organization that continues to employ such a person is wrong to do so- regardless of the value of that personâs work.
Youâre talking about knowingly trading the assault and abuse of disempowered students for some set of advances?
Thatâs pretty messed up.
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Iâm personally zero tolerance on such things, but it is a living issue in universities and laboratories. Iâm reacting to the comment above about Macron and his predator wife (and we had the same argument about Bill Clinton some decades back). What argument lets us give a pass to a politician but not to anyone else where the decision will have equal or greater impact on society?
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The right choice is the one where people are not victimized and abuse is not pardoned.
Or are you volunteering to be the designated grope-ee so that we can get this great âscienceâ out of these brilliant but sexually deviant scientists? Because thats the only ethical choice right? If weâre going to weigh science against assault and allow brilliance any thing it wants. Have people throw themselves into the volcano for the benefit of humanity. You can sign up first!
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Um, I donât. We shouldnât.
Sexual predators should not be tolerated, regardless of the âimpact on society.â
And while it might seem to be a âliving issueâ in universities, it really shouldnât be. People who sexually assault others are unacceptable employees- and employers who knowingly employ them will learn (eventually) about the sort of lawsuits that come as a result.
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No. Did you read my post? Iâm zero tolerance on this stuff. Your response to me is uncalled-for and offensive personalization.
The point is that people are gving a free pass in this very thread to predatory behavior on the basis of pragmatism. Iâm just trying to tweak that out.
Ethics is quite the hardest branch of philosophy, but people treat it as if it was easy and obvious.
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Could you be more specific? 'Cos if youâre trying to compare handsy scientists to Romeo and Juliet for âpragmatismâ, you hit false equivalency square on.
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[quote=âgadgetgirl, post:78, topic:190â]
Could you be more specific?[/quote]
Macron was a 15-year-old schoolboy when he start âdatingâ his late-30s teacher, now his wife. The relationship began with Macron stalking her. When I mentioned him above, people chimed in to say that theyâd support him over Le Pen.
Examples like Macron, like Clinton, like Trump, show that people are willing to be flexible in their condemnation of behaviors if they support the person for some other reason.
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They can still do science if they keep their hands to themselves. Itâs not an either/or situation.
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Youâre the one that sees this as a âconundrumâ and yet are also âzero toleranceâ? How does that work?
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But Macron is no longer 15.
If it were happening now, I would say they had to wait a few years â thatâs what the couple I mentioned way upthread did. They did see each other socially, but it was very on the up and up until the younger one had moved to the next age bracket.
I still think youâre falsely equating. Handsy professors donât typically stop at one grope, one student â and especially donât stop at ânoâ. Thatâs different from a situation happening between two people.
Youâre talking about the rare relationship that started off on the wrong side of legality and morality, then grew into something stable and acceptable â not a serial behaviour.
Put it this way: if the 15 year old and the 22 year old cooled it off until they were 19 and 26, I wouldnât find anything objectionable about that.
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Supposedly Macron did cool it off from 15 to 17, and even after having been sent away for a year, they still ended up married. I mean, is it kind of icky? Sure. I donât know many 31 year olds that want to date 17 year old boys. Would I do it? Nope. But is it on the same level as Professor Grabby? Or serial assaulters? I donât think soâŚ
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Nothing about giving anyone a pass on bad behaviour. The choice for France is the same straightforward one faced in the U.S. and some other European countries: vote for the creepy centre-right neoliberal tool, vote for the creepy neofascist, vote for neither.
If itâs scientific or any other kind of progress youâre looking for, a fascist isnât going to deliver it unless it involves finding ways to kill people.
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I just thought of something else. In the facts as you state them, Macron was the underage one. Even as a stalker, he would have been considered the victim â it would have been up to his now-wife to rebuff him and report it (which is exactly what most teachers would have done).
Macronâs now the one running for office, not his wife. Iâm not up on stat rape law for France, but this is heading into âwe canât trust them because they were raped and didnât fight back hard enoughâ territory.
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They are pretty different situations though. Bill Clinton is a better example because there are several women who have made serious accusations and been ignored, just like Trump, and neither should be given a pass - they are both predators.
Macon, while the start of his marriage was absolutely unhealthy, is not a predator of women. Unless there is some news in France that I donât know about his marriage has a bad beginning but is otherwise just atypical.
Thatâs why equating them doesnât make a lot of sense, Maconâs obviously consenting now and past unhealthy behavior isnât something that followed him through his life
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[quote=âMissyPants, post:81, topic:190, full:trueâ]
Youâre the one that sees this as a âconundrumâ and yet are also âzero toleranceâ? How does that work?[/quote]
I recognize it as a difficulty, and consequently try not to make glib judgmental assertions about people and their behaviors. The reason I raised the question in the first place is that I have trouble reconciling my gut reaction with a nuanced analysis, and wanted to hear how others coped with it.
[quote=âgadgetgirl, post:82, topic:190â]
But Macron is no longer 15.[/quote]
in the facts as you state them, Macron was the underage one.
I agree with both of these as considerations; heâs not the predator, heâs just married to oneâŚbut continues to defend that decision from long ago.
One could also argue that Trumpâs indiscretions were in the past. It isnât an argument I especially like. Clinton, alas, couldnât make the same argument for his indiscretions.
Ultimately, I think when someone engages in what one judges to be bad behavior, one has to view it as contributory evidence to a more complete picture of that person. In Trumpâs case, for example, the taped confessions are just one part of a large cohesive picture of him as a predacious bully. In Macronâs case, it seems to be a one-off from his youth, and doesnât fit with or against his other activity; the fact that he defends his marriage is icky and endearing in equal measures, so they cancel one another out.
However, once you allow for this kind of contextualizing, weâre back to the question of what to do about someone when they have strong positives as well as strong negatives (or, as in Macronâs case, when both have negatives). Unfortunately, as @kimmo points out above,
and anyone who falls into the trap of thinking a discussion is meant to be a conversation, rather than a stoning, is immediately suspect.
[quote=âemo_pinata, post:86, topic:190â]
Maconâs obviously consenting now and past unhealthy behavior isnât something that followed him through his life [/quote]
Possibly because heâs only now entering into public life.
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I mean possibly, but the fear of someone being a predator is certainly not the same as an actually predator. Itâs sort of the same ballpark of blaming Hillary Clinton for Bill Clintonâs actions when Trump is literally a sexual predator who has been accused of sexual assault.
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