Not Feminism 101

[LearnedCoward]

Maybe I wasn’t fully serious, but I wasn’t fully joking either.

I’ve been subjected to a lot of nimbyism about strip clubs, casinos, etc moving in and destroying communities or whatever, and I’m unconvinced. Just as long as they’re all in one place, I’m fine with it. When I posted that comment, I just had a weird thought that maybe nimbyism worked in reverse. If fast casual restaurants came into a vice district, would they be planting a flag that the neighborhood is all of a sudden “family friendly”? Of course, this is all highly theoretical.

[gadgetgirl]

Okay, I’ll bite. In the grand scheme of things, how are fast-casual restaurants like Chili’s (or is it Chili’s specifically?) a more regrettable blot on the pinafore of humanity than your garden-variety strip club?

The Chili’s is a chain store. The owners may well be hard pressed to even point out that location on a map of Bourbon Street. And there will be precious little about it specific to Bourbon Street – more likely the menu will be virtually identical to those of the Chili’s in Boston and San Antonio and Kalamazoo. Thus, it’ll make a Bourbon Street a little less Bourbon Street.

A strip club… they can be same-y, but they tend to be independently owned (or be made to seem to be). Independent businesses generally make more of an effort to be part of the neighbourhood.

There’s a PK Dick story about a society where chain stores and mass production have been encouraged by the government to ensure everyone’s lived experience is similar, no matter their physical location, and to discourage travel, in the hopes that a populace deprived of an exchange of novel ideas will be more placid and pliant. Something to consider.

[mindysan33]

As someone who last a beloved aunt to breast cancer, fuck cancer.

[mindysan33]

how are fast-casual restaurants like Chili’s (or is it Chili’s specifically?) a more regrettable blot on the pinafore of humanity than your garden-variety strip club?

Honestly, I’d rather have a strip club vs. a Chilis because a Chilis is a corporate behemoth that has a tendency to destroy localized competition. A strip club is going to be a locally owned and run. Plus, strip clubs tend to be surrounded by other kinds of locally owned clubs (at least here in ATL) with lots of gay bars being around the same community.

I’m not saying that strip clubs can be problematic, they can be. But they also tend to be more tied into the local economy than a chilis where more of the money are going to be sent out of the local economy to corporate. Chain places also tend to benefit from local and state governments pushing community destroying tax cuts, usually not the case with strip clubs.

Plus, what @LearnedCoward said regarding only partially being serious.

I’ve been subjected to a lot of nimbyism about strip clubs, casinos, etc moving in and destroying communities or whatever, and I’m unconvinced.

Because chain places also destroy local economies as well.

If fast casual restaurants came into a vice district, would they be planting a flag that the neighborhood is all of a sudden “family friendly”? Of course, this is all highly theoretical.

Well, that dynamic is playing out right now up on Cheshire Bridge Road, with strip clubs and gay bars are being shut down due to rising rents as new apartments are being built up there.

There’s a PK Dick story about a society where chain stores and mass production have been encouraged by the government to ensure everyone’s lived experience is similar, no matter their physical location, and to discourage travel, in the hopes that a populace deprived of an exchange of novel ideas will be more placid and pliant. Something to consider.

I’m fairly certain JG Ballard covered some similar territory, although based on various forms of violence in a society that socially enforced corporate forms of mass production and consumption… Seems like that was a theme of Kingdom Come, anyway.

[Wisconsin_Platt]

It has already been said, but I find the Corporate Restaurants are just the rolling Blight of Generica.

When I travel, I try to find the “local flavor” (be that what it may be) and there were two sites I would visit that literally had no non-chain restaurants open for dinner. It was a 45 minute drive to get to something that wasn’t in every other state I traveled to.

[Donald_Petersen]

Honestly, I’d rather have a strip club vs. a Chilis because a Chilis is a corporate behemoth that has a tendency to destroy localized competition. A strip club is going to be a locally owned and run. Plus, strip clubs tend to be surrounded by other kinds of locally owned clubs (at least here in ATL) with lots of gay bars being around the same community.

I’m not convinced. At best we might use that argument to support a local independent regular-type bar, like Sam Malone’s Cheers (if it were a real independent bar owned by a real retired ballplayer who also works there), in place of a… well, I don’t drink, so I don’t frequent bars, but if there were a corporate chain of bars (like a McDonalds for watered-down beer or some such) where most of the profits go to enrich shareholders somewhere, then we might have a comparison worth discussing.

But strip clubs might not be directly comparable to dive bars, and even less comparable to chain restaurants. I guess it’s nice to know the revenues of the strip club directly benefit Lefty Patterson, the owner, and the ladies and bouncers and bartenders therein, rather than some shareholders somewhere out of state. Hey, how much do strippers typically make hourly? I don’t mean the tips, which I hope (somewhat forlornly) that they get to keep 100% for themselves, but rather the rate the club pays them? Is it hourly, or per dance? Do the club’s revenues only come from cover charges and expensive drink minimums?

Whatever. The dancers (like the waitstaff and dishwashers and busers and cashiers and managers at a Chili’s) get paid locally and spend their wages however they want. The strip club owner (always assuming, as I do, that they’re an upstanding local entrepreneur and not, like, the mob) spends their money in the local economy, too, but I still don’t see a compelling ethical argument behind supporting the Mom and Pop who own The Seventh Veil over the LLC that controls a dozen locations of Scores.

Economics aside, is there no feminist argument anymore against strip clubs?

Hmm. Do any exist wherein the dancers are also shareholders? That’d be neat.

[mindysan33]

But strip clubs might not be directly comparable to dive bars,

That depends, though. Who runs it, what’s the clientel, etc. I’d argue that the infamous/famous Clermont Lounge here in ATL is as much a wonderful dive bar as it is a strip club, and the strippers are… unique. At the Clermont is the legendary Blondie:

She’s known for both crushing beer cans between her tits and for her poetry.

Wikipedia on Clermont:

Clermont Lounge

And of course, you can make the argument that many strip clubs are somewhat “corporate” in that they are run by crime syndicates, as you indicate. And of course, many strippers experience sexual harassment/violence in their place of work, but so do waitresses at fast casual places like Chilis… I’d be interested to see stats for reported sexual harassment and compare that to people’s experiences of sexual harassment in both places, too. Sexual harassment is pretty common in restaurant work, at least from my experiences 20 years ago are any indication. I’d suspect that most strippers also make far more than waitresses.

BTW, I’m not trying to necessarily pick on Chilis… it was just the example that popped into my head, because it was the most recent fast casual place I ate at. But that makes them even more comparable to corporate chains, I’d argue, because the only think that separates the two is how they are defined by the law.

I think that corporate chain places are less likely to be a place of community involvement and support except on a very superficial level. The goal is to get as many warm bodies in and out on a given day, and employees and even management might be more likely to be from elsewhere or just flat out incentivized to put corporate concerns over local needs.

As for wages, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that corporate chains pay less when they can, and try to skimp on benefits by having the majority of their work force being part time workers. The manager or franchisee can also claim they are just following corporate dictates, too, so they are less responsible for the individuals they hire. It’s the dehumanizing aspects of corporate ownership that I most detest… and yes strip clubs can dehumanize their workers, but as the protest in NOLA indicates, not always…

Economics aside, is there no feminist argument anymore against strip clubs?

Absolutely. But there are also feminist arguments in support of sex workers across the board, especially from the third wave (see Kathlene Hannah of Bikini Kill).

Hmm. Do any exist wherein the dancers are also shareholders? That’d be neat.

As a matter of fact, there are such things:

http://www.sfgate.com/performance/article/Lusty-Lady-becomes-first-worker-owned-strip-club-2567731.php

Much like feminist porn production companies…

[Donald_Petersen]

As a matter of fact, there are such things:

That was great! I wonder how many more there are now. Serious bummer what happened to the Lusty Lady, though. Not because of mismanagement or anything, but rather, according to Wikipedia,

The landlord, Roger Forbes (part of Deja Vu Consulting Inc. which by that time owned almost every strip club in San Francisco with the exception of Crazy Horse, Mitchell Brothers O’Farrell Theatre, and Nob Hill) refused to renew the lease after attempts to re-negotiate the rent failed.

Now there’s a guy I think I could hate.

And of course, many strippers experience sexual harassment/violence in their place of work, but so do waitresses at fast casual places like Chilis… I’d be interested to see stats for reported sexual harassment and compare that to people’s experiences of sexual harassment in both places, too. Sexual harassment is pretty common in restaurant work, at least from my experiences 20 years ago are any indication.

The big and most obvious difference is that strip clubs, unlike restaurants, are built and operated for the express purpose of objectifying women, and subjecting them to perhaps the most transactional and unhealthiest nonviolent interactions with men this side of actual prostitution. It’s good that at least some strippers can make a decent wage, because holy shit do they earn hazard pay.

I get that your typical stripper probably understands what she’s in for in a typical workday, and maybe plenty of them enter the field with their eyes wide open, as opposed to lots of minimum-wage high schoolers who get their first food service job without ever expecting the leers and buttpinches and outright abuse that any random customer (or manager) might choose to deploy at any moment.

But just as I can support troops without supporting actual military action, I can support sex workers without supporting the actual industry they work in. I don’t think I’ve ever met a stripper who wasn’t a perfectly lovely person, and what they do with their time is certainly none of my business. But if I offered a million dollars to any given stripper (or, for that matter, any given fast food worker) on the condition that they leave their industry entirely for a decade…

Well, what do I know. Probably a bunch of strippers might turn me down. I can’t imagine any fast food worker doing so.

[gadgetgirl]

The big and most obvious difference is that strip clubs, unlike restaurants, are built and operated for the express purpose of objectifying women,

Having talked to some real, actual strippers, I think you’d find a lot of them would argue you this one. A lot of it has to do with how the places are run and whether they lean towards straight clothing removal or burlesque.

[Nytespryte]

Hey, how much do strippers typically make hourly? I don’t mean the tips, which I hope (somewhat forlornly) that they get to keep 100% for themselves, but rather the rate the club pays them? Is it hourly, or per dance? Do the club’s revenues only come from cover charges and expensive drink minimums?

Dancers frequently actually have to pay to dance. It’s called a stage fee or a house fee. And they usually have to share tips with bartenders and other staff.

Edit: Yes I’ve know several strippers, including one heading up some of the movement to unionize specifically in NOLA.

[knoxblox]

Okay, I’ll bite. In the grand scheme of things, how are fast-casual restaurants like Chili’s (or is it Chili’s specifically?) a more regrettable blot on the pinafore of humanity than your garden-variety strip club?

A minimum of 15 pieces of flair?

[Donald_Petersen]

I’m not talking about burlesque or Vegas showgirls. Artistic expression covers an unimaginably vast spectrum.

But lap dances and that stack of 1s and 5s at the tip rail are there to service the male boner (or otherwise titillate the interested viewer). The choreography might be appreciated, but is hardly necessary to achieve the end result.

[AndyHilmer]

A minimum of 15 pieces of flair?

A thousand times this fake shit.

Local chains can be bad too, no matter the business.

Prot Land has a strip cluster (not quite a chain) called Casa Diablo, and it’s like Voodoo Donuts: every new resident goes once. If it’s to their liking, they go back. All strip joints are weird. I always end up dumbfounded at the zoo-like atmosphere even as the jimmies rustle at the drunken idiocy and naked hustling… and things lower down move around. They aren’t the kind of place I can hang out.

A regional bar-eatery chain called McMenamins is much better than the Chili’s nonsense. They refurbish historical properties into hotels, theaters and event spaces even as they open up the worst bars ever in shitty strip malls. People who work there don’t like the corporate crap but at least it isn’t a fucking Chili’s or Claimjumper.

[gadgetgirl]

The choreography might be appreciated, but is hardly necessary to achieve the end result.

The choreography is to keep the strippers from getting bored as much as anything.

Strip clubs being shitty or not shitty is a different discussion from turning a famous area into a shopping mall with chain stores and chain restaurants.

I’d rather keep the chains out of the neighbourhood and then work on making sure none of the businesses are shitty to their employees separately.

[Donald_Petersen]

Strip clubs being shitty or not shitty is a different discussion from turning a famous area into a shopping mall with chain stores and chain restaurants.

Yup, one hundred percent.

[Melizmatic]

I have a story to share and I’m not sure if it belongs here, or in Molesters Being Outed, or if a whole new thread about Not Being Complicit needs to be started:

Yesterday was one of those days where my kid was off hanging out with her bestie and not in my hair, so I spent most of it doing errands.

When it came time for a late lunch, all I wanted was some shrimp tacos and a vanilla coke; so I walked down to the local taco truck, with a quick detour to Jack in the Box first. (I don’t eat their food, but soft drinks are fair game.)

Even though the line wasn’t long it took forever to get to the register, and while I was waiting, I noticed three tween girls in line behind me, giggling nervously and staring out the window.

At first I thought it was just kids being kids, silly and probably annoying, but then I overheard some of what they were saying:

“Oh my god, he’s got it out.”
"That’s so nasty! "
“I dare you to shout ‘put your dick away’…”

That made my head snap up and I moved slightly so I could see out the window as well.

Sure enough, there was a weird, creepy-looking middle-aged dude out in the parking lot, standing between two cars with his dick out of his pants.

My nose wrinkled in disgust, and at first I assumed he must be urinating.
But then I saw him looking directly at the young girls who were rightfully freaking out.

And then he decided to come into the restaurant, with the obvious intent of intimidating the threesome.

Now, living in a fairly populous metropolitan area, I’ve seen all sorts of unsavory, inappropriate behavior out in public; people relieving themselves, having sex or even doing drugs.

Usually, I just shake my head and mind my own business, but this wasn’t one of those days.

The tweens were understandably alarmed by the perv’s approach, and as he got in line behind them, they instinctively shied away, huddling closer to the nearest adult who seemed ‘safe,’ - me. They started chattering loudly, insinuating that I was their ‘mom.’

My response?

Pure Melizmatic.

First I made a joke, telling them they were trippin’ if they thought I seriously looked old enough to be the mother of all three of them, before giving them serious advice: “What that man just did is illegal. Do any of you have a phone? Get it out…”

Then I turned around and took the perv’s picture with my own phone, saying loudly enough for the whole restaurant to hear:

“I saw what you did, that shit is illegal and I just took your picture. You leave these three girls alone, unless you want us to call 911 on you. if anything shady should happen to them, I will be sending this picture to the authorities. No more enabling rape culture. Now FUCK OFF.”

The perv got noticeably jumpy, started mumbling incoherently, and tried to avoid having his photo taken, but I got one anyway.

I repeated my admonishment loudly, and then finally it was my turn to place my order. While at the counter, I told the cashier everything, and that she needed to contact their security. (Her facial expression of instant revulsion and outrage was pretty gratifying.) The perv quietly beat a hasty retreat out of Jack in the Box.

Before I left, I told the group of young girls, "When you get your food, you get yourselves to where ever you’re headed post haste, and you keep your phones handy. Don’t be ever be afraid to make a loud fuss if someone creeps you out. "

Then I walked down to the taco truck and finally got my tacos.

[mindysan33]

[Melizmatic]

Valar dohaeris.

[knoxblox]

[Wanderfound]

This thread.

https://twitter.com/nochorus/status/960643785192591361