You wouldn’t believe how much I’ve learned here (and at TOS too). Usually it was a matter of not thinking about it much, rather than overcoming animosity. Ignorance, which sometimes is difficult to overcome.
This was clearly stated but I simply couldn’t disconnect the two in my mind. Maybe analogous how beginning (and some experienced) writers get hurt by any criticism of their work, because they confuse it with an attack on themselves. After 25 years of writers’ groups I’ve manage learn how to avoid that at least. But I’ve never been accused of homophobia before, and though the complaint was not that but sort of adjacent, I found it very hard to get over it (of course as a kid I joked as much as anyone, and probably hurt people who I didn’t know were gay. Enlightenment came later.)
I’ve been silent on this as well, but mainly because I can’t figure out what to say. I’ve been thinking about this though, and I think I should walk back my “can add to homophobia even if not homophobic” comment.
It can add to homophobia because anything can add to anything else. The intent wasn’t to be homophobic and I seriously doubt @kxkvi is homophobic. We should trust each other here and work out our issues constructively rather than put each other on blast for not being Woker Than Thou™.
I can’t even say it’s a comment I wouldn’t have made, because I’m certainly not above being crass at times. I wouldn’t have attached to much to it though, because sometimes jokes don’t land. We have to strike a balance between attacking the joke and attacking the person.
I’d say that if such a joke “can add to homophobia” despite not being homophobic, then @kxkvi has every right to feel put on blast for being called out publicly for this, even though that was not @MarjaE’s intention.
I’d also say that @kxkvi has every right to walk back his apology, both because it was an edge case and because he wasn’t truly sorry. When we apologize, we should mean it. If we upset someone, we should try to understand why they’re upset and make an effort to not continue to upset them. A knee-jerk apology doesn’t address any of this.
All, you can’t imagine how much the support has helped.
Oh, yes. Mine was definitely an apology not thought though, I think because I was trying to avoid all the recent (and not-so-recent) nopology and almopology stuff (call out to @nimelennar for making a thread about a word I invented - did you know if you google it there are only two hits – here? Not up there with robotics, but whatever).
So that’s another lesson for me. Think before apologizing (and of course think before posting).
Please don’t. I know I’m not alone in regarding you as a valued member of this community.
I’m late to this discussion, and I understand the arguments against your joke. However, I think it can be interpreted as implying that Trump is so willing to submit to dictators that he will do things that are demeaning in his own mind, not necessarily in anyone else’s.
(Sex-related insults about political leaders have a long tradition. I remember there were jokes about Ronald Reagan’s alleged crush on Margaret Thatcher.)
I see a lot of that too, not that I’m saying people are doing that here. I’d argue for the most generous interpretation of any comment, especially among friends or acquaintances.
@kxkvi, you made a joke, some people got upset, you apologized. Let’s all move on. I just hope some of my less-than-thoughtful posts at The Old Place are now buried so deep that no one remembers them.
Yep that’s what I tried to say. Oh well. Like you said, time to move on. One takeaway, though, is that we ask that people PM a person who’s said something iffy, or notify a moderator, rather complain in a comment in the thread.
I still think private messages make criticism more personal, and less issue-al, and I still associate them with harassment I’ve experienced on other sites. I doubt I’m the only one to experience similar harassment.
So I would strongly suggest avoiding critical privte messages.
I looked at it more from the “cheating” angle. Straight people cheat on each other. Gay people cheat on each other. Bisexual people cheat on each other… Hell, even asexual people. People cheat.
Other people read it differently. The question then becomes how to approach that. You’re a longstanding member of this community. Absolutely a “heads up, I know you probably didn’t intend this, but” PM or a word to a mod who could do the same would be a better choice than public blasting, because as a longstanding and active member of this community, we can be fairly certain that your motive is not to troll or harm.
None of us ever are or can be totally perfect and aware about all the implications of everything we say. Intent may not change whether or not a statement is hurtful, but it absolutely should inform how we respond. Coming out guns blazing is not the best response in most cases. Quietly giving a person – especially one who’s shown they’re not a troll – a chance to do better usually has better results.
Again, @kxkvi, I really do hope you stick around. And from the sounds of things, you aren’t the only one who should be making an apology.
Same here! I think you’re a valuable member of our community, and I’d hate to see you leave us. I don’t believe you meant to hurt anyone.
I hope we can find ways to discuss language and expressions without making people uncomfortable. I feel like I learn better ways to communicate from talks like this.
When I suggested a PM, I guess I was thinking of people who are reasonable but see a possible problem. Humor, gentleness, asking what was meant first? But I can see that some might do it that way.
I think it’s mostly the catholic league dildos, and the priests/bishops that are more conservative leaning… the ones who took up with the right wing protestants who hate them, and will turn on them next once the other groups they hate are safely put into their “proper” place…
A flag was thrown on this post and I asked the flagger if we could start a conversation about discussing religion in a way that is respectful of each others’ faiths. They agreed. I’ll edit this post to link the whole thread.
Added:
The concern as I understand it about this post is the ad hominem attack on Catholics instead of discussing specific policies and practices.
As this issue hasn’t come up in a public conversation before, I thought it was a good time to have it.
I’m going to go ahead and speculate the “dildos” part set people off. Not everyone knows that the bishop and papal miters have been compared to the heads of penises for decades, if not centuries (The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross is my main reference on this, as problematic as it is).
On September 8, 2007, Kathy Griffin won her first Emmy for season two of reality show Kathy Griffin: My Life on the D-List . Griffin stirred up controversy with her acceptance speech, saying that “a lot of people come up here and thank Jesus for this award. I want you to know that no one had less to do with this award than Jesus. He didn’t help me a bit.” She went on to hold up her Emmy and say, “Suck it, Jesus, this award is my god now!”[36]
Her remarks were quickly condemned by Donohue, who urged the TV academy to “denounce Griffin’s obscene and blasphemous comment.”[37] After the Academy of Television Arts & Sciences decided to censor Griffin’s remark, Donohue said, “The Academy of Television Arts & Sciences reacted responsibly to our criticism of Kathy Griffin’s verbal assault on 85 percent of the U.S. population. The ball is now in Griffin’s court. The self-described ‘complete militant atheist’ needs to make a swift and unequivocal apology to Christians. If she does, she will get this issue behind her. If she does not, she will be remembered as a foul-mouthed bigot for the rest of her life.”[38]
Seriously? People dunk on catholics all the time. I was speaking of a specific, right wing organization that (as @smulder noted and agreed with) carries water for the more conservative elements in the church.
Look, I was not raised catholic, for complicated reasons, which is something I actually deeply regret, because I feel like I was cut off from my heritage. But half my family is catholic, and had to put up with years of bigotry from my non-catholic side. My methodist grandmother resented that my mother married my father, and she always looked down on my father’s side of the family. My father actually thought about becoming and priest as a kid, and my lesbian aunt was a committed catholic, despite the contradictions. Her priest gave her a beautiful service and it was clear that she was a beloved and respected member of her community, including her church, whatever the mother church and the catholic league, had to say about her and her decades long partner ship. I grew up in the south with catholic family members, and in the more rural deep south too, not just in a city or somewhere that was more traditionally catholic. My family left ireland during the lesser famine, from a situation that was full on colonialism. Plus, plenty of people here will dunk on the church endlessly - often for entirely sensible reasons - the lack of rooting out predators from the church is a stain as black as black can be. I often hold back on defending catholics because of that, because I know any large-scale organization is going to be shot through with corruption and vice.
I still would argue that the organization known as the catholic league (led by that jack ass Bill Donahue) is full of dildos, who don’t give a shit about Christ, and the good works that many catholics regularly engage with (including my grandfather, who spent the last few years of his life, visiting and given communion to prisoners in my home town). But sure. I’m the real anti-catholic bigot, I guess. why not.